1
00:00:08,950 --> 00:00:05,829
welcome to tales from the rabbit hole my

2
00:00:11,509 --> 00:00:08,960
guest today is dr robert bartholomew who

3
00:00:13,350 --> 00:00:11,519
has a phd in medical sociology and is an

4
00:00:15,589 --> 00:00:13,360
honorary senior lecturer at the

5
00:00:17,189 --> 00:00:15,599
department of psychological medicine at

6
00:00:18,230 --> 00:00:17,199
the university of auckland in new

7
00:00:20,790 --> 00:00:18,240
zealand

8
00:00:23,189 --> 00:00:20,800
he is an expert in mass psychogenic

9
00:00:26,390 --> 00:00:23,199
illness and is the co-author with robert

10
00:00:28,550 --> 00:00:26,400
bellow of the book havana syndrome mass

11
00:00:32,229 --> 00:00:28,560
psychogenic illness and the real story

12
00:00:33,990 --> 00:00:32,239
behind the embassy mystery and hysteria

13
00:00:36,790 --> 00:00:34,000
robert thank you very much for agreeing

14
00:00:38,709 --> 00:00:36,800
to be here and welcome well thank you

15
00:00:41,750 --> 00:00:38,719
uh so let's uh let's get straight into

16
00:00:43,350 --> 00:00:41,760
it like havana syndrome uh what

17
00:00:45,350 --> 00:00:43,360
for those people who don't know what is

18
00:00:49,990 --> 00:00:45,360
havana syndrome and how did you come

19
00:00:53,189 --> 00:00:50,000
across it in late 2016 some cia officers

20
00:00:55,910 --> 00:00:53,199
stationed in havana cuba began to

21
00:00:57,990 --> 00:00:55,920
hear unusual noises outside their homes

22
00:01:00,790 --> 00:00:58,000
at night and then one of them fell sick

23
00:01:02,790 --> 00:01:00,800
and attributed the sound to their

24
00:01:06,550 --> 00:01:02,800
symptoms which were pretty mundane

25
00:01:09,670 --> 00:01:06,560
headache ear pain things like that and a

26
00:01:13,750 --> 00:01:09,680
folk theory developed that

27
00:01:16,070 --> 00:01:13,760
they had been harassed by some type of

28
00:01:18,070 --> 00:01:16,080
acoustical weapon that was used by the

29
00:01:21,190 --> 00:01:18,080
cubans in conjunction with possibly the

30
00:01:21,990 --> 00:01:21,200
russians or the chinese

31
00:01:23,950 --> 00:01:22,000
in

32
00:01:25,590 --> 00:01:23,960
august of

33
00:01:29,270 --> 00:01:25,600
2017

34
00:01:31,910 --> 00:01:29,280
the state department announced publicly

35
00:01:33,670 --> 00:01:31,920
that these so-called attacks were under

36
00:01:35,190 --> 00:01:33,680
investigation

37
00:01:37,510 --> 00:01:35,200
since then there have been hundreds of

38
00:01:39,590 --> 00:01:37,520
attacks not only in cuba but around the

39
00:01:41,670 --> 00:01:39,600
world i mean in a nutshell that's the

40
00:01:42,950 --> 00:01:41,680
that's the story that's being reported

41
00:01:45,510 --> 00:01:42,960
in the media

42
00:01:47,990 --> 00:01:45,520
uh although it's not true okay

43
00:01:50,230 --> 00:01:48,000
so uh you you miss you mentioned some of

44
00:01:52,550 --> 00:01:50,240
the symptoms there things like uh like

45
00:01:53,429 --> 00:01:52,560
headaches and uh hearing noises and ear

46
00:01:55,590 --> 00:01:53,439
pain

47
00:01:57,830 --> 00:01:55,600
and uh you know when i looked at this

48
00:02:00,149 --> 00:01:57,840
list of symptoms i thought to myself the

49
00:02:02,230 --> 00:02:00,159
first time i saw it i actually have all

50
00:02:03,910 --> 00:02:02,240
of these symptoms right now like i i

51
00:02:05,830 --> 00:02:03,920
personally have tinnitus i can hear a

52
00:02:07,670 --> 00:02:05,840
ringing in my ears

53
00:02:10,869 --> 00:02:07,680
not not a great one but a little one i

54
00:02:12,790 --> 00:02:10,879
have aches and pains i have uh somewhat

55
00:02:14,070 --> 00:02:12,800
more forgetfulness than i had when i was

56
00:02:15,430 --> 00:02:14,080
younger and

57
00:02:18,070 --> 00:02:15,440
you know other things are happening to

58
00:02:19,270 --> 00:02:18,080
me like my hair is falling out so what

59
00:02:22,390 --> 00:02:19,280
was it about

60
00:02:25,270 --> 00:02:22,400
this list of symptoms that led people to

61
00:02:27,350 --> 00:02:25,280
suspect that it might be some kind of

62
00:02:29,990 --> 00:02:27,360
you know some kind of attack the big

63
00:02:31,190 --> 00:02:30,000
issue with what happened is uh the

64
00:02:34,229 --> 00:02:31,200
journal of the american medical

65
00:02:37,830 --> 00:02:34,239
association they published two articles

66
00:02:40,070 --> 00:02:37,840
uh one in 2018 one in 2019

67
00:02:42,790 --> 00:02:40,080
that um suggested that there was

68
00:02:45,509 --> 00:02:42,800
something nefarious going on

69
00:02:47,030 --> 00:02:45,519
there or possibly brain damage

70
00:02:49,430 --> 00:02:47,040
more recently

71
00:02:52,150 --> 00:02:49,440
in december of 2020 the national academy

72
00:02:53,509 --> 00:02:52,160
of sciences had a panel of scientists

73
00:02:55,509 --> 00:02:53,519
that looked into this

74
00:02:58,390 --> 00:02:55,519
and concluded that the most plausible

75
00:02:59,910 --> 00:02:58,400
explanation was pulsed microwave

76
00:03:03,430 --> 00:02:59,920
radiation

77
00:03:04,869 --> 00:03:03,440
a deliberate attack by some nefarious

78
00:03:06,869 --> 00:03:04,879
foreign power

79
00:03:08,149 --> 00:03:06,879
and that's really driven

80
00:03:11,830 --> 00:03:08,159
the media

81
00:03:13,589 --> 00:03:11,840
reports my first career was as a radio

82
00:03:15,670 --> 00:03:13,599
journalist in upstate new york in the

83
00:03:16,710 --> 00:03:15,680
late 1970s

84
00:03:19,030 --> 00:03:16,720
and

85
00:03:20,949 --> 00:03:19,040
i can see how this developed you know

86
00:03:23,190 --> 00:03:20,959
you're a journalist you you're not an

87
00:03:24,949 --> 00:03:23,200
expert you have to rely on experts you

88
00:03:27,670 --> 00:03:24,959
see things like oh journal of the

89
00:03:30,309 --> 00:03:27,680
american medical association it must be

90
00:03:33,110 --> 00:03:30,319
true i can tell you right now

91
00:03:34,550 --> 00:03:33,120
i'll resign my position as an honorary

92
00:03:36,070 --> 00:03:34,560
senior lecturer in the department of

93
00:03:39,030 --> 00:03:36,080
psychological medicine at auckland

94
00:03:41,670 --> 00:03:39,040
university if anybody can demonstrate to

95
00:03:45,190 --> 00:03:41,680
me that the diplomats and intelligence

96
00:03:48,149 --> 00:03:45,200
officers in cuba suffered brain damage

97
00:03:50,550 --> 00:03:48,159
or that there was hearing loss or major

98
00:03:53,910 --> 00:03:50,560
might white matter track changes in

99
00:03:56,309 --> 00:03:53,920
people's brains this is science fiction

100
00:03:59,110 --> 00:03:56,319
yeah that's a pretty strong statement uh

101
00:04:01,509 --> 00:03:59,120
so you you would characterize what we're

102
00:04:02,710 --> 00:04:01,519
seeing here as a mass psychogenic

103
00:04:04,390 --> 00:04:02,720
illness

104
00:04:06,390 --> 00:04:04,400
and could you explain a little bit about

105
00:04:07,190 --> 00:04:06,400
what a mass psychogenic illness actually

106
00:04:09,350 --> 00:04:07,200
is

107
00:04:10,789 --> 00:04:09,360
sure and look if i had a hundred dollars

108
00:04:15,030 --> 00:04:10,799
to bet

109
00:04:17,670 --> 00:04:15,040
i would ba every single penny uh on the

110
00:04:19,509 --> 00:04:17,680
mass psychogenic illness horse because

111
00:04:22,069 --> 00:04:19,519
uh it's gonna come in

112
00:04:24,790 --> 00:04:22,079
um mass psychogenic illness think of it

113
00:04:26,469 --> 00:04:24,800
as the placebo effect in reverse we've

114
00:04:27,909 --> 00:04:26,479
all heard of the placebo effect if i

115
00:04:29,830 --> 00:04:27,919
give you a sugar pill it's how you're

116
00:04:33,270 --> 00:04:29,840
going to feel better often you will it's

117
00:04:34,629 --> 00:04:33,280
not going to cure cancer or diabetes but

118
00:04:37,990 --> 00:04:34,639
a lot of

119
00:04:40,629 --> 00:04:38,000
ailments are stress related and it

120
00:04:43,189 --> 00:04:40,639
really works well with things like that

121
00:04:46,790 --> 00:04:43,199
but it also works in reverse which is

122
00:04:48,469 --> 00:04:46,800
known as the nocebo effect where if i

123
00:04:50,870 --> 00:04:48,479
give you a sugar pill

124
00:04:53,510 --> 00:04:50,880
and tell you it's rat poison

125
00:04:55,909 --> 00:04:53,520
and you believe it then you're likely to

126
00:04:58,070 --> 00:04:55,919
elicit symptoms you might even vomit but

127
00:04:59,510 --> 00:04:58,080
there's nothing physically wrong with

128
00:05:02,390 --> 00:04:59,520
you

129
00:05:04,950 --> 00:05:02,400
it's also known as historically been

130
00:05:06,230 --> 00:05:04,960
known as conversion disorder okay the

131
00:05:08,230 --> 00:05:06,240
conversion

132
00:05:09,350 --> 00:05:08,240
of psychological

133
00:05:10,629 --> 00:05:09,360
stress

134
00:05:13,909 --> 00:05:10,639
into

135
00:05:17,029 --> 00:05:13,919
physical symptoms that don't have

136
00:05:19,670 --> 00:05:17,039
an organic basis

137
00:05:20,950 --> 00:05:19,680
so like conversion disorder you know

138
00:05:22,870 --> 00:05:20,960
that's something that happens to an

139
00:05:24,870 --> 00:05:22,880
individual but we're talking about mass

140
00:05:26,629 --> 00:05:24,880
psychogenic

141
00:05:28,550 --> 00:05:26,639
illness which it kind of implies you

142
00:05:31,029 --> 00:05:28,560
know a group of people what's the

143
00:05:33,350 --> 00:05:31,039
difference between conversion disorder

144
00:05:35,590 --> 00:05:33,360
um and things like um

145
00:05:37,990 --> 00:05:35,600
psychosomatic symptoms somatic somatic

146
00:05:39,510 --> 00:05:38,000
form disorder and things like that which

147
00:05:42,070 --> 00:05:39,520
apply to an individual and something

148
00:05:45,909 --> 00:05:42,080
that applies to a group

149
00:05:50,390 --> 00:05:45,919
well it can and does spreading groups

150
00:05:52,550 --> 00:05:50,400
a classic example is salem in 1692.

151
00:05:54,390 --> 00:05:52,560
you had conversion disorder involving

152
00:05:56,950 --> 00:05:54,400
twitching shaking altered states of

153
00:05:58,550 --> 00:05:56,960
consciousness um there's two main types

154
00:05:59,430 --> 00:05:58,560
of mass psychogenic illness you've got

155
00:06:01,029 --> 00:05:59,440
the

156
00:06:04,150 --> 00:06:01,039
short-term

157
00:06:07,749 --> 00:06:04,160
type with no pre-existing tension

158
00:06:10,790 --> 00:06:07,759
whereas somebody a group is exposed to

159
00:06:12,309 --> 00:06:10,800
some agent usually an unknown smell

160
00:06:15,590 --> 00:06:12,319
unfamiliar odor

161
00:06:16,390 --> 00:06:15,600
and it's believed to be toxic

162
00:06:17,909 --> 00:06:16,400
and

163
00:06:18,790 --> 00:06:17,919
you get

164
00:06:21,189 --> 00:06:18,800
um

165
00:06:24,629 --> 00:06:21,199
people fainting having difficulty

166
00:06:27,029 --> 00:06:24,639
breathing it happens very quickly and it

167
00:06:28,950 --> 00:06:27,039
usually lasts for a few hours no more

168
00:06:31,029 --> 00:06:28,960
than a day people are rushed to the

169
00:06:33,749 --> 00:06:31,039
hospital they recover very quickly and

170
00:06:36,070 --> 00:06:33,759
they eventually identify the stimulus

171
00:06:39,350 --> 00:06:36,080
and it wasn't harmful

172
00:06:40,309 --> 00:06:39,360
what you've got going on in cuba is very

173
00:06:42,950 --> 00:06:40,319
different

174
00:06:45,270 --> 00:06:42,960
that is the neurological type of mass

175
00:06:48,390 --> 00:06:45,280
psychogenic illness that

176
00:06:51,909 --> 00:06:48,400
is exactly what happened in salem

177
00:06:54,629 --> 00:06:51,919
and it's a group that's under long-term

178
00:06:57,589 --> 00:06:54,639
prolonged stress

179
00:06:58,350 --> 00:06:57,599
and in situations like that you tend to

180
00:07:01,670 --> 00:06:58,360
get

181
00:07:03,350 --> 00:07:01,680
neurological symptoms which is exactly

182
00:07:06,950 --> 00:07:03,360
what happened in cuba and if you're

183
00:07:09,270 --> 00:07:06,960
familiar with the news back in 2011 2012

184
00:07:11,830 --> 00:07:09,280
in leroy and western new york that's

185
00:07:14,230 --> 00:07:11,840
exactly what they had as well these uh

186
00:07:17,510 --> 00:07:14,240
young girls mostly at that school

187
00:07:19,270 --> 00:07:17,520
who had um neurological symptoms

188
00:07:21,990 --> 00:07:19,280
difficulty walking

189
00:07:23,670 --> 00:07:22,000
um difficulty talking

190
00:07:25,749 --> 00:07:23,680
and that was diagnosed as mass

191
00:07:27,670 --> 00:07:25,759
psychogenic illness there was an uproar

192
00:07:29,830 --> 00:07:27,680
the new york state department of health

193
00:07:32,390 --> 00:07:29,840
said yes it's mass psychogenic illness

194
00:07:34,469 --> 00:07:32,400
and after a few months it died down and

195
00:07:36,710 --> 00:07:34,479
a consensus emerged

196
00:07:39,670 --> 00:07:36,720
that it was mass psychogenic illness and

197
00:07:41,189 --> 00:07:39,680
the same thing will happen here once uh

198
00:07:43,670 --> 00:07:41,199
this comes out and i think it will come

199
00:07:45,350 --> 00:07:43,680
out the wheels of science

200
00:07:46,869 --> 00:07:45,360
turn slowly

201
00:07:50,629 --> 00:07:46,879
but they turn

202
00:07:52,629 --> 00:07:50,639
yes yes uh no i i yeah i find myself

203
00:07:54,869 --> 00:07:52,639
agreeing with you uh uh on this this

204
00:07:56,550 --> 00:07:54,879
matter you know and you as you you might

205
00:07:58,629 --> 00:07:56,560
remember like uh

206
00:08:01,029 --> 00:07:58,639
when it first started coming out i wrote

207
00:08:03,029 --> 00:08:01,039
a small piece about it on on on meta

208
00:08:05,670 --> 00:08:03,039
bank and you you commented on it

209
00:08:08,230 --> 00:08:05,680
uh at the time of several years ago

210
00:08:10,950 --> 00:08:08,240
but uh part of the reason i

211
00:08:13,830 --> 00:08:10,960
i wrote that was that

212
00:08:16,150 --> 00:08:13,840
i recognized not only that i myself had

213
00:08:17,749 --> 00:08:16,160
this list of symptoms but it also

214
00:08:19,189 --> 00:08:17,759
reminded me of another thing called uh

215
00:08:21,670 --> 00:08:19,199
morgellons

216
00:08:23,029 --> 00:08:21,680
or more gellons i'm not sure how you

217
00:08:25,909 --> 00:08:23,039
there's two ways of pronouncing it in

218
00:08:27,110 --> 00:08:25,919
that each way seems equally valid but uh

219
00:08:30,469 --> 00:08:27,120
that's

220
00:08:31,990 --> 00:08:30,479
would you characterize that as a

221
00:08:33,430 --> 00:08:32,000
the same type of thing or is that a

222
00:08:35,589 --> 00:08:33,440
difference type of thing what's your

223
00:08:37,430 --> 00:08:35,599
experience being with morgellons i wrote

224
00:08:39,589 --> 00:08:37,440
a book chapter on morgellons i think

225
00:08:40,709 --> 00:08:39,599
it's a combination of four different

226
00:08:43,670 --> 00:08:40,719
things

227
00:08:45,030 --> 00:08:43,680
um not necessarily just mass psychogenic

228
00:08:46,949 --> 00:08:45,040
illness there are a variety of

229
00:08:48,949 --> 00:08:46,959
conditions that are lumped under that

230
00:08:50,389 --> 00:08:48,959
heading but what's interesting about

231
00:08:51,750 --> 00:08:50,399
morgellons

232
00:08:55,110 --> 00:08:51,760
is that

233
00:08:56,389 --> 00:08:55,120
people for the first time with a variety

234
00:08:58,790 --> 00:08:56,399
of symptoms

235
00:09:02,070 --> 00:08:58,800
came together on the internet and the

236
00:09:02,949 --> 00:09:02,080
real vector of spread for morgellons

237
00:09:06,389 --> 00:09:02,959
was

238
00:09:09,430 --> 00:09:06,399
the internet and then later social media

239
00:09:12,870 --> 00:09:09,440
you uh mentioned that um you were

240
00:09:14,150 --> 00:09:12,880
writing about havana syndrome on

241
00:09:17,430 --> 00:09:14,160
metabunk

242
00:09:19,910 --> 00:09:17,440
i would define or characterize havana

243
00:09:23,269 --> 00:09:19,920
syndrome as at this point

244
00:09:25,829 --> 00:09:23,279
mega bunk because it's gone global it's

245
00:09:27,590 --> 00:09:25,839
just gone it's insanity what's happened

246
00:09:28,630 --> 00:09:27,600
recently you know it's just everywhere

247
00:09:30,389 --> 00:09:28,640
now

248
00:09:31,910 --> 00:09:30,399
yeah but it's almost in a way i think

249
00:09:34,710 --> 00:09:31,920
that makes it almost seem more

250
00:09:37,030 --> 00:09:34,720
believable because it becomes too big

251
00:09:39,350 --> 00:09:37,040
uh to not be true you've got so many

252
00:09:41,509 --> 00:09:39,360
people involved in it you've got so many

253
00:09:43,430 --> 00:09:41,519
different uh medical professionals and

254
00:09:45,030 --> 00:09:43,440
you've got your politicians not that you

255
00:09:46,949 --> 00:09:45,040
know politicians are experts on this but

256
00:09:49,190 --> 00:09:46,959
you've got people weighing in

257
00:09:50,710 --> 00:09:49,200
uh on it with uh who are in positions of

258
00:09:52,710 --> 00:09:50,720
power

259
00:09:54,630 --> 00:09:52,720
uh how do we how do we get to this stage

260
00:09:57,430 --> 00:09:54,640
you know is there anything that's that's

261
00:09:59,590 --> 00:09:57,440
comparable uh historically to to this

262
00:10:01,269 --> 00:09:59,600
situation what this there's so much

263
00:10:02,630 --> 00:10:01,279
misinformation out there people saying

264
00:10:04,389 --> 00:10:02,640
oh what about the brain damage that's

265
00:10:05,910 --> 00:10:04,399
not mass hysteria what about the white

266
00:10:08,870 --> 00:10:05,920
matter track changes what about the

267
00:10:11,670 --> 00:10:08,880
hearing loss that never happened it's

268
00:10:14,949 --> 00:10:11,680
absolutely not true i have staked my

269
00:10:17,910 --> 00:10:14,959
career on it it's just demonstrably not

270
00:10:19,750 --> 00:10:17,920
true and look what this reminds me of is

271
00:10:22,069 --> 00:10:19,760
someone who has studied the supernatural

272
00:10:23,509 --> 00:10:22,079
and paranormal and the history of

273
00:10:26,389 --> 00:10:23,519
skepticism

274
00:10:28,870 --> 00:10:26,399
it parallels ufo

275
00:10:31,030 --> 00:10:28,880
and monster sighting waves you know

276
00:10:34,550 --> 00:10:31,040
these symptoms are so vague as you had

277
00:10:36,790 --> 00:10:34,560
mentioned in common as to be experienced

278
00:10:40,630 --> 00:10:36,800
by everyone at some point who's ever

279
00:10:43,190 --> 00:10:40,640
lived and probably in any given week and

280
00:10:45,350 --> 00:10:43,200
so what's happened here is people are

281
00:10:48,470 --> 00:10:45,360
redefining a variety of aches and pains

282
00:10:50,069 --> 00:10:48,480
under a new label globally right because

283
00:10:52,630 --> 00:10:50,079
they've been told to be on the lookout

284
00:10:54,550 --> 00:10:52,640
for anomalous health incidents whatever

285
00:10:56,710 --> 00:10:54,560
that means and

286
00:10:58,790 --> 00:10:56,720
so it's reminiscent of the setup for

287
00:11:01,190 --> 00:10:58,800
many ufo and monster sighting flaps

288
00:11:03,030 --> 00:11:01,200
because you typically get

289
00:11:04,389 --> 00:11:03,040
this initial

290
00:11:07,829 --> 00:11:04,399
sensational

291
00:11:09,750 --> 00:11:07,839
report where residents begin to

292
00:11:12,870 --> 00:11:09,760
scrutinize their environment for

293
00:11:15,750 --> 00:11:12,880
evidence of the perceived anomaly and

294
00:11:17,110 --> 00:11:15,760
given as we know the the fallibility of

295
00:11:19,110 --> 00:11:17,120
human perception and memory

296
00:11:22,310 --> 00:11:19,120
reconstruction you know people start to

297
00:11:25,350 --> 00:11:22,320
see what they expect to see so a

298
00:11:27,910 --> 00:11:25,360
rustling in the bushes becomes a bigfoot

299
00:11:31,190 --> 00:11:27,920
uh the wake of a boat is mistaken for

300
00:11:34,630 --> 00:11:31,200
the loch ness monster and venus is is

301
00:11:37,430 --> 00:11:34,640
taken for a ufo and look ordinarily

302
00:11:39,750 --> 00:11:37,440
people don't pay close attention to

303
00:11:40,949 --> 00:11:39,760
their surroundings but during these

304
00:11:44,230 --> 00:11:40,959
flaps

305
00:11:45,030 --> 00:11:44,240
people particularly in localized areas

306
00:11:47,030 --> 00:11:45,040
they

307
00:11:48,630 --> 00:11:47,040
start to scrutinize their environment

308
00:11:50,790 --> 00:11:48,640
and you'll get dozens of sightings

309
00:11:53,509 --> 00:11:50,800
popping up in a short period of time

310
00:11:55,350 --> 00:11:53,519
because they start to notice things

311
00:11:57,590 --> 00:11:55,360
they ordinarily don't notice they start

312
00:12:00,790 --> 00:11:57,600
to stare at the woods they start to

313
00:12:01,750 --> 00:12:00,800
stare at the sky or stare at the lake

314
00:12:04,790 --> 00:12:01,760
and

315
00:12:06,389 --> 00:12:04,800
a classic example of this

316
00:12:08,470 --> 00:12:06,399
which is

317
00:12:11,269 --> 00:12:08,480
standard reading for introductory

318
00:12:14,790 --> 00:12:11,279
sociology students is the seattle

319
00:12:16,550 --> 00:12:14,800
windshield pitting epidemic of 1954 when

320
00:12:19,990 --> 00:12:16,560
rumors spread

321
00:12:23,030 --> 00:12:20,000
that the west coast region of the united

322
00:12:25,269 --> 00:12:23,040
states was being subjected to atomic

323
00:12:26,790 --> 00:12:25,279
fallout from the testing that was going

324
00:12:29,430 --> 00:12:26,800
on in the pacific

325
00:12:31,670 --> 00:12:29,440
and so people were looking around to

326
00:12:33,990 --> 00:12:31,680
find evidence of the fallout and people

327
00:12:35,990 --> 00:12:34,000
started reporting they could see these

328
00:12:37,269 --> 00:12:36,000
pit marks on their windscreens their

329
00:12:40,069 --> 00:12:37,279
windshields

330
00:12:43,990 --> 00:12:40,079
and it got to the point where the

331
00:12:45,829 --> 00:12:44,000
governor of washington state telephoned

332
00:12:47,190 --> 00:12:45,839
president dwight eisenhower and asked

333
00:12:48,150 --> 00:12:47,200
him for help

334
00:12:54,790 --> 00:12:48,160
and

335
00:12:57,110 --> 00:12:54,800
closer at these windshield pits

336
00:12:59,030 --> 00:12:57,120
they found that pit marks are there all

337
00:13:01,829 --> 00:12:59,040
the time they're a common feature of

338
00:13:04,069 --> 00:13:01,839
windshields but instead of looking

339
00:13:05,750 --> 00:13:04,079
through their windshield windshields and

340
00:13:07,750 --> 00:13:05,760
windscreens

341
00:13:09,030 --> 00:13:07,760
residents for the first time began

342
00:13:10,150 --> 00:13:09,040
looking

343
00:13:11,910 --> 00:13:10,160
at them

344
00:13:13,910 --> 00:13:11,920
and noticing these marks that have been

345
00:13:15,670 --> 00:13:13,920
there all along

346
00:13:17,190 --> 00:13:15,680
yeah and i think that that's that

347
00:13:19,430 --> 00:13:17,200
certainly resonates with with my

348
00:13:21,509 --> 00:13:19,440
experience with morgellons you know uh

349
00:13:23,030 --> 00:13:21,519
studying morgellons is

350
00:13:25,269 --> 00:13:23,040
uh that people

351
00:13:27,670 --> 00:13:25,279
they're they feel ill for some reason

352
00:13:29,670 --> 00:13:27,680
and they're told that their their

353
00:13:32,470 --> 00:13:29,680
symptoms might be being caused by these

354
00:13:34,069 --> 00:13:32,480
fibers that are you know burrowing

355
00:13:36,069 --> 00:13:34,079
through their skin and so they get their

356
00:13:38,629 --> 00:13:36,079
little magnifying glass out

357
00:13:39,990 --> 00:13:38,639
and then they they study their skin very

358
00:13:42,310 --> 00:13:40,000
closely and they find these little

359
00:13:44,150 --> 00:13:42,320
fibers on them because these little

360
00:13:45,509 --> 00:13:44,160
fibers are everywhere and it's just that

361
00:13:47,110 --> 00:13:45,519
it's really just that they've never

362
00:13:48,710 --> 00:13:47,120
looked before

363
00:13:50,230 --> 00:13:48,720
and i think this this happens when with

364
00:13:52,949 --> 00:13:50,240
a lot of things like you said with with

365
00:13:54,629 --> 00:13:52,959
ufos but it's interesting in the context

366
00:13:56,069 --> 00:13:54,639
of of health

367
00:13:57,590 --> 00:13:56,079
uh because

368
00:13:59,829 --> 00:13:57,600
it's it's not like they're looking and

369
00:14:02,389 --> 00:13:59,839
finding something on them they're

370
00:14:04,710 --> 00:14:02,399
looking and they're finding symptoms

371
00:14:06,389 --> 00:14:04,720
like ringing in the ears you know i i

372
00:14:08,230 --> 00:14:06,399
hardly ever think about the ringing in

373
00:14:10,550 --> 00:14:08,240
the ears and and i probably wouldn't

374
00:14:11,990 --> 00:14:10,560
unless someone someone mentioned it or i

375
00:14:13,829 --> 00:14:12,000
you know i happened to you know be

376
00:14:16,069 --> 00:14:13,839
reading about ringing in the ears and i

377
00:14:17,269 --> 00:14:16,079
i think again you know i have ringing in

378
00:14:19,829 --> 00:14:17,279
the ears

379
00:14:22,949 --> 00:14:19,839
aches and pains and things like that

380
00:14:25,430 --> 00:14:22,959
uh people

381
00:14:27,189 --> 00:14:25,440
haven't really looked at their their

382
00:14:29,430 --> 00:14:27,199
bodies and what they're feeling with the

383
00:14:31,430 --> 00:14:29,440
same kind of attention

384
00:14:33,509 --> 00:14:31,440
and then these doctors come along and

385
00:14:35,829 --> 00:14:33,519
ask them to to

386
00:14:38,150 --> 00:14:35,839
to to do that and they're naturally

387
00:14:41,590 --> 00:14:38,160
going to find things

388
00:14:44,389 --> 00:14:41,600
yeah look it can't be microwaves because

389
00:14:46,629 --> 00:14:44,399
if you're hearing it and recording it

390
00:14:48,710 --> 00:14:46,639
it's not the so-called fray effect which

391
00:14:50,230 --> 00:14:48,720
disrupts the nervous system through

392
00:14:53,750 --> 00:14:50,240
microwave which was what the national

393
00:14:55,990 --> 00:14:53,760
academy of sciences report uh concluded

394
00:14:58,150 --> 00:14:56,000
it was most plausibly that they they

395
00:15:00,470 --> 00:14:58,160
were wrong the people on that panel were

396
00:15:03,509 --> 00:15:00,480
not experts on microwaves they got it

397
00:15:06,870 --> 00:15:03,519
wrong the fray effect is not a sound

398
00:15:09,110 --> 00:15:06,880
it's microwaves hitting your body and

399
00:15:11,350 --> 00:15:09,120
stimulating nerves that are either in

400
00:15:14,310 --> 00:15:11,360
the ear or the brain and you get a

401
00:15:16,870 --> 00:15:14,320
perception of sound a very

402
00:15:19,350 --> 00:15:16,880
barely discernible clicking sound what

403
00:15:20,150 --> 00:15:19,360
you would perceive as a clicking sound

404
00:15:22,550 --> 00:15:20,160
but

405
00:15:25,750 --> 00:15:22,560
there's no actual sound so if you've

406
00:15:27,269 --> 00:15:25,760
recorded it that's not the fray effect

407
00:15:29,590 --> 00:15:27,279
and that's how the national academy of

408
00:15:33,910 --> 00:15:29,600
sciences reports just flat out wrong

409
00:15:35,590 --> 00:15:33,920
and many of these attacks were recorded

410
00:15:37,350 --> 00:15:35,600
and when they were analyzed by a

411
00:15:40,269 --> 00:15:37,360
scientific panel

412
00:15:43,110 --> 00:15:40,279
commissioned in

413
00:15:45,110 --> 00:15:43,120
2017-2018 so-called jason panel of

414
00:15:47,829 --> 00:15:45,120
expert scientists

415
00:15:51,030 --> 00:15:47,839
they found that they were the mating

416
00:15:53,590 --> 00:15:51,040
calls of insects most notably crickets

417
00:15:55,829 --> 00:15:53,600
so you can eliminate microwaves and you

418
00:15:57,430 --> 00:15:55,839
can eliminate an acoustical weapon as

419
00:15:58,790 --> 00:15:57,440
well and everybody always asks me they

420
00:16:01,430 --> 00:15:58,800
say oh

421
00:16:02,949 --> 00:16:01,440
but there's some secret microwave

422
00:16:03,990 --> 00:16:02,959
whipping out their

423
00:16:04,710 --> 00:16:04,000
weapon

424
00:16:06,949 --> 00:16:04,720
well

425
00:16:09,110 --> 00:16:06,959
based on the research that's out there

426
00:16:12,389 --> 00:16:09,120
acoustical and microwave weapons don't

427
00:16:13,910 --> 00:16:12,399
work very well if they did i think we

428
00:16:15,350 --> 00:16:13,920
would have used them recently in

429
00:16:16,550 --> 00:16:15,360
afghanistan

430
00:16:17,590 --> 00:16:16,560
and

431
00:16:22,790 --> 00:16:17,600
they

432
00:16:23,829 --> 00:16:22,800
terms of what's being reported in cuba

433
00:16:24,870 --> 00:16:23,839
you've got

434
00:16:27,350 --> 00:16:24,880
no

435
00:16:28,629 --> 00:16:27,360
incidents being recorded at the embassy

436
00:16:32,150 --> 00:16:28,639
itself

437
00:16:34,710 --> 00:16:32,160
they were at one of two large hotels

438
00:16:37,269 --> 00:16:34,720
mostly and then at people's homes and

439
00:16:39,509 --> 00:16:37,279
this one apartment complex well

440
00:16:42,389 --> 00:16:39,519
to target someone

441
00:16:44,790 --> 00:16:42,399
inside a large hotel

442
00:16:48,150 --> 00:16:44,800
it would defy the laws of physics to be

443
00:16:50,790 --> 00:16:48,160
able to do that without other people

444
00:16:53,590 --> 00:16:50,800
being aware of it for starters and you

445
00:16:54,629 --> 00:16:53,600
would literally heat their brains and

446
00:16:56,389 --> 00:16:54,639
now

447
00:16:57,910 --> 00:16:56,399
that's according to

448
00:16:59,189 --> 00:16:57,920
kenneth foster

449
00:17:01,590 --> 00:16:59,199
who's the man

450
00:17:04,069 --> 00:17:01,600
who in the early 1970s first identified

451
00:17:06,390 --> 00:17:04,079
the mechanism in the fray effect he says

452
00:17:08,470 --> 00:17:06,400
and i was in contact with him recently

453
00:17:09,510 --> 00:17:08,480
it's definitely not the fray effect it

454
00:17:11,029 --> 00:17:09,520
can't be

455
00:17:13,110 --> 00:17:11,039
and why

456
00:17:15,510 --> 00:17:13,120
the panel didn't interview him but they

457
00:17:17,829 --> 00:17:15,520
interviewed some other scientists who

458
00:17:18,630 --> 00:17:17,839
have some pretty unconventional views as

459
00:17:20,230 --> 00:17:18,640
well

460
00:17:21,990 --> 00:17:20,240
is beyond me

461
00:17:23,590 --> 00:17:22,000
i think there was some politics involved

462
00:17:25,750 --> 00:17:23,600
there because

463
00:17:28,390 --> 00:17:25,760
a friend of mine who i've written four

464
00:17:30,630 --> 00:17:28,400
articles with and peer-reviewed medical

465
00:17:32,870 --> 00:17:30,640
journalists simon wesley at king's

466
00:17:34,870 --> 00:17:32,880
college london he was one of the

467
00:17:36,630 --> 00:17:34,880
scientists on the panel and he's an

468
00:17:38,710 --> 00:17:36,640
expert on mass psychogenic illness and

469
00:17:40,230 --> 00:17:38,720
i'm like yes there's an expert on mass

470
00:17:43,029 --> 00:17:40,240
psychogenic illness on the national

471
00:17:45,350 --> 00:17:43,039
academy of sciences panel he came out

472
00:17:46,630 --> 00:17:45,360
before the study was

473
00:17:48,390 --> 00:17:46,640
published

474
00:17:51,669 --> 00:17:48,400
and he gave an interview in which he

475
00:17:53,669 --> 00:17:51,679
said oh based on what i've seen i think

476
00:17:55,669 --> 00:17:53,679
the most likely explanation is mass

477
00:17:57,350 --> 00:17:55,679
psychogenic illness

478
00:18:00,310 --> 00:17:57,360
well

479
00:18:02,390 --> 00:18:00,320
shortly thereafter he was contacted and

480
00:18:05,350 --> 00:18:02,400
kicked off the panel

481
00:18:09,029 --> 00:18:05,360
to me that's politics driving it just

482
00:18:12,230 --> 00:18:09,039
like recently i mean very recently the

483
00:18:15,909 --> 00:18:12,240
head of the biden panel looking into

484
00:18:18,070 --> 00:18:15,919
havana syndrome ambassador spratlin she

485
00:18:21,430 --> 00:18:18,080
did a zoom interview with a number of

486
00:18:23,590 --> 00:18:21,440
havana syndrome patients and at the time

487
00:18:25,590 --> 00:18:23,600
the fbi report

488
00:18:27,990 --> 00:18:25,600
contents had just been leaked in which

489
00:18:30,150 --> 00:18:28,000
they concluded as we have that it's mass

490
00:18:31,669 --> 00:18:30,160
psychogenic illness and one of the

491
00:18:33,270 --> 00:18:31,679
patients said oh

492
00:18:35,590 --> 00:18:33,280
what do you think about that report that

493
00:18:36,710 --> 00:18:35,600
said it's mass psychogenic illness do

494
00:18:39,190 --> 00:18:36,720
you

495
00:18:41,350 --> 00:18:39,200
believe in that and she's like well i'm

496
00:18:43,270 --> 00:18:41,360
keeping an open mind i'm not ruling out

497
00:18:44,950 --> 00:18:43,280
possibility of mass psychogenic illness

498
00:18:47,190 --> 00:18:44,960
within days

499
00:18:49,430 --> 00:18:47,200
she was forced to resign there was an

500
00:18:51,750 --> 00:18:49,440
uproar that she was considering the

501
00:18:53,590 --> 00:18:51,760
possibility of mass psychogenic illness

502
00:18:54,630 --> 00:18:53,600
because they're not crazy

503
00:18:56,710 --> 00:18:54,640
and

504
00:18:59,510 --> 00:18:56,720
they don't have a mental illness but

505
00:19:01,990 --> 00:18:59,520
mass psychogenic illness is a collective

506
00:19:04,150 --> 00:19:02,000
stress response no one's saying you're

507
00:19:07,110 --> 00:19:04,160
crazy no one's saying you're mentally

508
00:19:10,630 --> 00:19:07,120
disturbed but the fact that the biden

509
00:19:12,310 --> 00:19:10,640
investigation is forcing her to resign

510
00:19:15,590 --> 00:19:12,320
shows me

511
00:19:18,150 --> 00:19:15,600
that it's being driven more by politics

512
00:19:19,350 --> 00:19:18,160
than by science and that's not a good

513
00:19:21,270 --> 00:19:19,360
thing

514
00:19:23,110 --> 00:19:21,280
so by politics uh is there someone who

515
00:19:25,590 --> 00:19:23,120
benefits from this or is it just simply

516
00:19:28,310 --> 00:19:25,600
about uh being nice to people and not

517
00:19:31,110 --> 00:19:28,320
being perceived as calling people crazy

518
00:19:33,669 --> 00:19:31,120
i feel like there's this kind of um

519
00:19:35,750 --> 00:19:33,679
great deference given to to the victims

520
00:19:37,430 --> 00:19:35,760
because in some ways they're serving the

521
00:19:41,590 --> 00:19:37,440
country and they've been injured in the

522
00:19:43,669 --> 00:19:41,600
line of duty and uh if we are to to kind

523
00:19:44,950 --> 00:19:43,679
of question their belief about what's

524
00:19:48,470 --> 00:19:44,960
wrong with them

525
00:19:50,310 --> 00:19:48,480
it's seen as a grave insult

526
00:19:53,029 --> 00:19:50,320
against them and do you think it's just

527
00:19:55,350 --> 00:19:53,039
simply the politicians being afraid

528
00:19:57,510 --> 00:19:55,360
of being uh being characterized in that

529
00:19:59,909 --> 00:19:57,520
way well same thing with gulf war

530
00:20:02,710 --> 00:19:59,919
syndrome right there's a lot of evidence

531
00:20:05,750 --> 00:20:02,720
that gulf war syndrome under that broad

532
00:20:08,710 --> 00:20:05,760
category that uh a lot of that

533
00:20:11,669 --> 00:20:08,720
involves psychogenic ailments and that's

534
00:20:14,149 --> 00:20:11,679
pretty mainstream science right now uh

535
00:20:16,230 --> 00:20:14,159
there's a lot of major figures that in

536
00:20:18,070 --> 00:20:16,240
in psychiatry and psychological medicine

537
00:20:20,390 --> 00:20:18,080
that would hold that view but i think

538
00:20:23,590 --> 00:20:20,400
there's something deeper here and that

539
00:20:25,110 --> 00:20:23,600
is look the fbi report concluded that it

540
00:20:27,190 --> 00:20:25,120
was mass psychogenic illness and they

541
00:20:29,510 --> 00:20:27,200
looked at the same evidence we did and

542
00:20:31,830 --> 00:20:29,520
everybody else looked at but that report

543
00:20:33,909 --> 00:20:31,840
wasn't leaked until recently and you

544
00:20:35,270 --> 00:20:33,919
don't see people from the fbi coming out

545
00:20:36,789 --> 00:20:35,280
and defending that

546
00:20:38,630 --> 00:20:36,799
and i'll tell you why

547
00:20:40,230 --> 00:20:38,640
because they're afraid

548
00:20:41,430 --> 00:20:40,240
they're afraid

549
00:20:43,190 --> 00:20:41,440
to utter

550
00:20:46,070 --> 00:20:43,200
the h word

551
00:20:48,470 --> 00:20:46,080
because they know what happens they saw

552
00:20:49,830 --> 00:20:48,480
what happened to ambassador spratlin

553
00:20:51,750 --> 00:20:49,840
when she mentioned

554
00:20:53,350 --> 00:20:51,760
uh that she was holding out the

555
00:20:57,029 --> 00:20:53,360
possibility it was mass psychogenic

556
00:20:58,390 --> 00:20:57,039
illness she was gone there was a outcry

557
00:20:59,750 --> 00:20:58,400
these people were

558
00:21:02,470 --> 00:20:59,760
furious

559
00:21:03,990 --> 00:21:02,480
and i think what's happened here is in

560
00:21:06,950 --> 00:21:04,000
both the trump administration and the

561
00:21:09,029 --> 00:21:06,960
biden administration you've got

562
00:21:10,230 --> 00:21:09,039
lifelong bureaucrats who are involved in

563
00:21:11,270 --> 00:21:10,240
this

564
00:21:12,470 --> 00:21:11,280
who

565
00:21:14,870 --> 00:21:12,480
mistook

566
00:21:16,549 --> 00:21:14,880
the mating calls of crickets and cicadas

567
00:21:17,990 --> 00:21:16,559
for a sonic attack

568
00:21:24,390 --> 00:21:18,000
that

569
00:21:26,470 --> 00:21:24,400
five years tens of millions of dollars

570
00:21:28,310 --> 00:21:26,480
and a lot of time and resources when we

571
00:21:31,590 --> 00:21:28,320
can use this better for global warming

572
00:21:33,669 --> 00:21:31,600
and a global pandemic and this is

573
00:21:35,909 --> 00:21:33,679
greatly embarrassing

574
00:21:37,590 --> 00:21:35,919
to the united states government you know

575
00:21:38,630 --> 00:21:37,600
one of the most powerful countries in

576
00:21:40,789 --> 00:21:38,640
the world

577
00:21:43,510 --> 00:21:40,799
misperceived the sounds of crickets and

578
00:21:45,430 --> 00:21:43,520
cicadas as a sonic attack and then that

579
00:21:46,789 --> 00:21:45,440
was discredited a microwave attack and

580
00:21:49,750 --> 00:21:46,799
now you're hearing people just saying an

581
00:21:52,390 --> 00:21:49,760
energy attack and uh as each one of

582
00:21:54,870 --> 00:21:52,400
these things get discredited and i just

583
00:21:57,990 --> 00:21:54,880
think it's greatly embarrassing because

584
00:22:00,230 --> 00:21:58,000
they botched this whole thing

585
00:22:01,990 --> 00:22:00,240
yeah i think uh

586
00:22:03,510 --> 00:22:02,000
part of the problem that you know we're

587
00:22:04,789 --> 00:22:03,520
getting this this huge amount of

588
00:22:07,190 --> 00:22:04,799
contention is that it's a fairly

589
00:22:09,350 --> 00:22:07,200
complicated subject and you do get these

590
00:22:11,270 --> 00:22:09,360
kind of competing scientists you get

591
00:22:13,750 --> 00:22:11,280
these these long reports from various

592
00:22:16,870 --> 00:22:13,760
people uh which to some degree are

593
00:22:19,190 --> 00:22:16,880
politically biased but also simply you

594
00:22:21,430 --> 00:22:19,200
know biased by the the perceptions of

595
00:22:23,430 --> 00:22:21,440
the people writing it you know i think

596
00:22:25,750 --> 00:22:23,440
you mentioned uh in the book or one of

597
00:22:27,430 --> 00:22:25,760
your articles that you know first they

598
00:22:29,909 --> 00:22:27,440
were saying they had this traumatic

599
00:22:31,270 --> 00:22:29,919
brain injury but then another group of

600
00:22:33,909 --> 00:22:31,280
scientists studied and they said they

601
00:22:35,510 --> 00:22:33,919
had some kind of inner ear damage uh

602
00:22:37,510 --> 00:22:35,520
because they were people who studied

603
00:22:40,470 --> 00:22:37,520
that type of thing and you know it was

604
00:22:43,750 --> 00:22:40,480
almost like you know whatever your

605
00:22:45,590 --> 00:22:43,760
specialty is you you find that as being

606
00:22:48,070 --> 00:22:45,600
the cause for it i'll tell you an

607
00:22:50,149 --> 00:22:48,080
interesting story when the first patient

608
00:22:51,590 --> 00:22:50,159
study was being conducted and they

609
00:22:54,070 --> 00:22:51,600
submitted it to the journal of the

610
00:22:55,350 --> 00:22:54,080
american medical association the editors

611
00:22:57,510 --> 00:22:55,360
at the journal of the american medical

612
00:22:59,510 --> 00:22:57,520
association contacted

613
00:23:01,270 --> 00:22:59,520
professor robert balo who i wrote the

614
00:23:03,750 --> 00:23:01,280
book of anna syndrome with

615
00:23:04,710 --> 00:23:03,760
and they asked him to review the study

616
00:23:08,470 --> 00:23:04,720
because

617
00:23:10,789 --> 00:23:08,480
he is an imminent neurologist he created

618
00:23:14,070 --> 00:23:10,799
some of the tests that were actually

619
00:23:16,549 --> 00:23:14,080
being used in the study and he read the

620
00:23:18,070 --> 00:23:16,559
study and he rejected it and they

621
00:23:19,990 --> 00:23:18,080
published it anyway

622
00:23:21,830 --> 00:23:20,000
and he just couldn't believe it and he

623
00:23:23,990 --> 00:23:21,840
told me recently and he said you know

624
00:23:26,390 --> 00:23:24,000
he's what's i think he's 79 years of age

625
00:23:28,710 --> 00:23:26,400
now he's had a long and storied career

626
00:23:30,230 --> 00:23:28,720
has a standard textbook on the inner ear

627
00:23:33,270 --> 00:23:30,240
he said to me he goes you know robert he

628
00:23:35,270 --> 00:23:33,280
said over my career i probably reviewed

629
00:23:36,710 --> 00:23:35,280
a thousand articles in peer-reviewed

630
00:23:37,630 --> 00:23:36,720
medical journals

631
00:23:40,070 --> 00:23:37,640
and

632
00:23:42,390 --> 00:23:40,080
999 of them

633
00:23:44,149 --> 00:23:42,400
when i review it they always show me the

634
00:23:47,269 --> 00:23:44,159
other reviews

635
00:23:49,430 --> 00:23:47,279
that only did not happen one time

636
00:23:52,310 --> 00:23:49,440
can you guess which time that didn't

637
00:23:54,230 --> 00:23:52,320
happen and that was the jama study they

638
00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:54,240
didn't show them the other reviews

639
00:23:59,190 --> 00:23:56,720
assuming there even were other reviews

640
00:24:01,750 --> 00:23:59,200
and that's really odd and then you have

641
00:24:04,070 --> 00:24:01,760
the national academy of sciences panel

642
00:24:05,990 --> 00:24:04,080
and then kicking simon wesley who is sir

643
00:24:07,990 --> 00:24:06,000
simon wesley an imminent expert in

644
00:24:10,950 --> 00:24:08,000
psychological medicine kicking him off

645
00:24:14,149 --> 00:24:10,960
the panel you start to get a pattern

646
00:24:16,710 --> 00:24:14,159
here that there's some kind of politics

647
00:24:18,310 --> 00:24:16,720
that's being mixed in with this so how

648
00:24:21,269 --> 00:24:18,320
do you think it's going to get resolved

649
00:24:23,029 --> 00:24:21,279
uh you the you've got this

650
00:24:24,710 --> 00:24:23,039
this group of people pushing a certain

651
00:24:27,350 --> 00:24:24,720
narrative but like you're saying in the

652
00:24:29,029 --> 00:24:27,360
wheels of science uh are turning

653
00:24:30,950 --> 00:24:29,039
uh what's actually going to happen in

654
00:24:32,950 --> 00:24:30,960
the future that will kind of like chew

655
00:24:34,549 --> 00:24:32,960
it up and actually spit it out for the

656
00:24:36,149 --> 00:24:34,559
world to see

657
00:24:37,430 --> 00:24:36,159
people keep saying to me oh they're

658
00:24:39,190 --> 00:24:37,440
never gonna they're never gonna figure

659
00:24:40,870 --> 00:24:39,200
this out they'll figure it out

660
00:24:42,710 --> 00:24:40,880
right as i said the wheels of science

661
00:24:44,630 --> 00:24:42,720
turn slowly but they turn

662
00:24:46,710 --> 00:24:44,640
and it's it's turning as we speak right

663
00:24:48,870 --> 00:24:46,720
now it's turning with this program

664
00:24:51,750 --> 00:24:48,880
people are starting to realize

665
00:24:53,750 --> 00:24:51,760
that uh these jama studies were flawed

666
00:24:56,630 --> 00:24:53,760
and i mean journalists as well that the

667
00:25:00,149 --> 00:24:56,640
national academy of sciences panel was

668
00:25:02,950 --> 00:25:00,159
flawed i think this is going to collapse

669
00:25:05,669 --> 00:25:02,960
in the relatively near future on its own

670
00:25:07,990 --> 00:25:05,679
dead weight i've looked at the history

671
00:25:09,110 --> 00:25:08,000
of mass psychogenic illness and social

672
00:25:11,750 --> 00:25:09,120
panics

673
00:25:13,510 --> 00:25:11,760
i've collected over 3 500 cases of mass

674
00:25:14,950 --> 00:25:13,520
psychogenic illness alone going back to

675
00:25:16,870 --> 00:25:14,960
the middle ages

676
00:25:18,630 --> 00:25:16,880
and with outbreaks particularly when

677
00:25:21,269 --> 00:25:18,640
they involve a social panic an

678
00:25:24,390 --> 00:25:21,279
exaggerated fear and threat you

679
00:25:26,870 --> 00:25:24,400
typically get these stages the initial

680
00:25:29,590 --> 00:25:26,880
stage the the peak stage i think we're

681
00:25:32,070 --> 00:25:29,600
past that now now we're in the decline

682
00:25:35,510 --> 00:25:32,080
stage and toward the end of the decline

683
00:25:39,430 --> 00:25:35,520
stage you start to get a series of

684
00:25:40,950 --> 00:25:39,440
major reports that are highly skeptical

685
00:25:42,390 --> 00:25:40,960
similar to what we're doing right now

686
00:25:44,950 --> 00:25:42,400
with this podcast

687
00:25:47,269 --> 00:25:44,960
you always can find a rogue scientist

688
00:25:49,029 --> 00:25:47,279
out there who believes in bigfoot or

689
00:25:50,950 --> 00:25:49,039
chupacabras or that people are being

690
00:25:53,110 --> 00:25:50,960
abducted by space aliens

691
00:25:56,310 --> 00:25:53,120
and some scientists you know you'll ask

692
00:25:58,470 --> 00:25:56,320
them their opinion and they'll speculate

693
00:26:01,190 --> 00:25:58,480
i'm telling you right now i'm not

694
00:26:03,590 --> 00:26:01,200
speculating i know that the two java

695
00:26:05,590 --> 00:26:03,600
studies were very poorly done and should

696
00:26:07,750 --> 00:26:05,600
never have been published i mean they

697
00:26:08,870 --> 00:26:07,760
have so many flaws they look like swiss

698
00:26:11,029 --> 00:26:08,880
cheese

699
00:26:13,350 --> 00:26:11,039
but journalists see jama and they go

700
00:26:15,190 --> 00:26:13,360
gaga and then the unfortunately the

701
00:26:16,630 --> 00:26:15,200
national academy of science is panel

702
00:26:18,789 --> 00:26:16,640
people see that and they think it must

703
00:26:20,950 --> 00:26:18,799
be true but i'll tell you a story about

704
00:26:23,909 --> 00:26:20,960
the national academy of sciences panel

705
00:26:26,630 --> 00:26:23,919
eight months before the panel findings

706
00:26:28,470 --> 00:26:26,640
came out we came out with our book

707
00:26:30,789 --> 00:26:28,480
and in the panel findings they said you

708
00:26:33,350 --> 00:26:30,799
know one of the major plausible

709
00:26:36,070 --> 00:26:33,360
explanations is mass psychogenic illness

710
00:26:39,110 --> 00:26:36,080
but unfortunately we can't assess that

711
00:26:40,350 --> 00:26:39,120
possibility because there

712
00:26:42,789 --> 00:26:40,360
is no

713
00:26:44,870 --> 00:26:42,799
epidemiological data they said that in

714
00:26:46,630 --> 00:26:44,880
their study like zero

715
00:26:49,510 --> 00:26:46,640
epidemiological

716
00:26:51,029 --> 00:26:49,520
uh data that they can look at on the

717
00:26:52,630 --> 00:26:51,039
early spread

718
00:26:55,430 --> 00:26:52,640
here is a study

719
00:26:56,789 --> 00:26:55,440
that's only 70 some odd pages long the

720
00:26:59,269 --> 00:26:56,799
main text

721
00:27:01,909 --> 00:26:59,279
that cites my research as an expert on

722
00:27:03,830 --> 00:27:01,919
mass psychogenic illness 11 times

723
00:27:08,470 --> 00:27:03,840
they're familiar with my literature and

724
00:27:10,630 --> 00:27:08,480
the literature in general yet they chose

725
00:27:11,590 --> 00:27:10,640
and there's i can't imagine they didn't

726
00:27:15,990 --> 00:27:11,600
see it

727
00:27:18,470 --> 00:27:16,000
they chose not to cite our book that was

728
00:27:21,630 --> 00:27:18,480
published eight months earlier that

729
00:27:23,669 --> 00:27:21,640
clearly outlined the early

730
00:27:27,590 --> 00:27:23,679
epidemiological spread

731
00:27:31,029 --> 00:27:27,600
of the symptoms how that happened is a

732
00:27:32,870 --> 00:27:31,039
good question for the members of that

733
00:27:35,430 --> 00:27:32,880
panel and

734
00:27:39,110 --> 00:27:35,440
i don't know how they would answer that

735
00:27:41,110 --> 00:27:39,120
but it's really curious and really odd

736
00:27:43,350 --> 00:27:41,120
that they didn't cite our book but they

737
00:27:46,430 --> 00:27:43,360
cited all those other studies and our

738
00:27:48,630 --> 00:27:46,440
book was the document that had the early

739
00:27:51,190 --> 00:27:48,640
epidemiological information on the

740
00:27:52,149 --> 00:27:51,200
spread and look what what they have to

741
00:27:54,710 --> 00:27:52,159
do

742
00:27:56,549 --> 00:27:54,720
in a case like this is you just have to

743
00:27:58,549 --> 00:27:56,559
follow the breadcrumbs

744
00:28:01,510 --> 00:27:58,559
look at the facts

745
00:28:03,269 --> 00:28:01,520
and what is it carl sagan said about

746
00:28:05,430 --> 00:28:03,279
people getting carried away wherever we

747
00:28:08,389 --> 00:28:05,440
have strong motions we're liable to fool

748
00:28:10,230 --> 00:28:08,399
ourselves to figure out this case you've

749
00:28:12,470 --> 00:28:10,240
got to go back to the beginning you've

750
00:28:14,549 --> 00:28:12,480
got to look at the historical context

751
00:28:17,990 --> 00:28:14,559
because all cases of mass psychogenic

752
00:28:20,389 --> 00:28:18,000
illness are couched in a social context

753
00:28:22,310 --> 00:28:20,399
as are all cases of social panics you've

754
00:28:25,590 --> 00:28:22,320
got to go back to that first report of

755
00:28:26,789 --> 00:28:25,600
patient zero it all started in this

756
00:28:29,750 --> 00:28:26,799
small

757
00:28:34,549 --> 00:28:29,760
unit of cia officers

758
00:28:36,870 --> 00:28:34,559
in havana in late 2016. and for weeks

759
00:28:39,510 --> 00:28:36,880
they had been hearing

760
00:28:41,669 --> 00:28:39,520
these mysterious sounds

761
00:28:43,990 --> 00:28:41,679
outside their homes at night and

762
00:28:46,230 --> 00:28:44,000
commenting like that's really unusual

763
00:28:47,350 --> 00:28:46,240
and almost seems like there's a beam of

764
00:28:50,070 --> 00:28:47,360
sound

765
00:28:52,549 --> 00:28:50,080
that's being pointed at our homes

766
00:28:53,750 --> 00:28:52,559
and then one day

767
00:28:55,590 --> 00:28:53,760
one of them

768
00:28:57,350 --> 00:28:55,600
wasn't feeling well

769
00:28:59,110 --> 00:28:57,360
and had a headache

770
00:29:02,070 --> 00:28:59,120
and ear pain

771
00:29:04,549 --> 00:29:02,080
and they went to the embassy clinic

772
00:29:06,070 --> 00:29:04,559
and he made a comment he said you know

773
00:29:08,310 --> 00:29:06,080
it's almost like someone's pointing a

774
00:29:10,950 --> 00:29:08,320
beam of light or a beam of sound at my

775
00:29:14,230 --> 00:29:10,960
house and a theory emerged that they

776
00:29:17,590 --> 00:29:14,240
were being harassed the cia agents

777
00:29:19,750 --> 00:29:17,600
by some new kind of sonic weapon and

778
00:29:21,909 --> 00:29:19,760
that quickly spread like wildfire

779
00:29:23,669 --> 00:29:21,919
through the american embassy now some of

780
00:29:25,110 --> 00:29:23,679
the researchers in these studies have

781
00:29:27,750 --> 00:29:25,120
said oh

782
00:29:29,990 --> 00:29:27,760
uh some of the patients that we talked

783
00:29:32,470 --> 00:29:30,000
to said that other people at the embassy

784
00:29:36,549 --> 00:29:32,480
didn't know about this until later that

785
00:29:38,470 --> 00:29:36,559
is absolutely categorically not true

786
00:29:40,789 --> 00:29:38,480
i've talked to and interviewed people at

787
00:29:42,310 --> 00:29:40,799
the embassy and they said

788
00:29:45,190 --> 00:29:42,320
everybody knew

789
00:29:46,710 --> 00:29:45,200
it spread like wildfire it was the worst

790
00:29:47,830 --> 00:29:46,720
kept secret

791
00:29:50,389 --> 00:29:47,840
and

792
00:29:52,870 --> 00:29:50,399
it later spread to the canadian embassy

793
00:29:54,470 --> 00:29:52,880
because the american embassy shared

794
00:29:56,630 --> 00:29:54,480
their information with the canadian

795
00:29:59,590 --> 00:29:56,640
embassy we know that for a fact there's

796
00:30:01,909 --> 00:29:59,600
documents out there on that and um so

797
00:30:03,830 --> 00:30:01,919
the early theory was they were harassing

798
00:30:05,590 --> 00:30:03,840
the diplomats with the sonic weapon and

799
00:30:08,310 --> 00:30:05,600
you might think to yourself that's

800
00:30:10,710 --> 00:30:08,320
really weird that's really odd that

801
00:30:12,230 --> 00:30:10,720
people would think that but you have to

802
00:30:14,549 --> 00:30:12,240
put yourself

803
00:30:16,870 --> 00:30:14,559
in their situation

804
00:30:18,549 --> 00:30:16,880
the idea that they were being harassed

805
00:30:21,830 --> 00:30:18,559
made sense to them

806
00:30:24,470 --> 00:30:21,840
because there's a long history of cuban

807
00:30:26,070 --> 00:30:24,480
agents harassing american diplomats

808
00:30:28,310 --> 00:30:26,080
going back decades

809
00:30:30,310 --> 00:30:28,320
all of the diplomats who were sent to

810
00:30:32,230 --> 00:30:30,320
the new embassy in havana

811
00:30:34,230 --> 00:30:32,240
in 2015

812
00:30:37,909 --> 00:30:34,240
had been briefed about it that during

813
00:30:40,710 --> 00:30:37,919
the cold war cuban agents were notorious

814
00:30:42,470 --> 00:30:40,720
for harassing americans they would sneak

815
00:30:44,710 --> 00:30:42,480
into their homes at night when they

816
00:30:45,990 --> 00:30:44,720
slept and open up all the windows and

817
00:30:47,750 --> 00:30:46,000
they'd wake up in the morning there'd be

818
00:30:49,110 --> 00:30:47,760
mosquitoes everywhere

819
00:30:51,029 --> 00:30:49,120
they would

820
00:30:52,950 --> 00:30:51,039
get up in the morning go downstairs and

821
00:30:55,110 --> 00:30:52,960
look on their kitchen table

822
00:30:57,110 --> 00:30:55,120
and there'd be cigarette butts

823
00:30:59,509 --> 00:30:57,120
and they don't smoke

824
00:31:01,430 --> 00:30:59,519
there'd be dog poo

825
00:31:03,669 --> 00:31:01,440
on your kitchen floor

826
00:31:05,509 --> 00:31:03,679
and you don't have a dog

827
00:31:09,029 --> 00:31:05,519
your books and your bookshelf would be

828
00:31:10,710 --> 00:31:09,039
rearranged you drive somewhere park and

829
00:31:13,269 --> 00:31:10,720
then when you go back to get into your

830
00:31:14,310 --> 00:31:13,279
car someone would have parked their car

831
00:31:17,029 --> 00:31:14,320
within

832
00:31:18,549 --> 00:31:17,039
a few centimeters of your car and you

833
00:31:20,630 --> 00:31:18,559
can't back out

834
00:31:22,310 --> 00:31:20,640
and so this would go on

835
00:31:24,149 --> 00:31:22,320
and that's why

836
00:31:25,750 --> 00:31:24,159
the early assumption by the state

837
00:31:29,029 --> 00:31:25,760
department was

838
00:31:31,190 --> 00:31:29,039
that they were most likely targeted by

839
00:31:33,990 --> 00:31:31,200
some kind of uh you know harassing

840
00:31:36,149 --> 00:31:34,000
weapon but what's the old saying

841
00:31:37,830 --> 00:31:36,159
there's an old saying for skeptics

842
00:31:39,350 --> 00:31:37,840
when you hear

843
00:31:42,230 --> 00:31:39,360
the sound

844
00:31:43,990 --> 00:31:42,240
of hoof beats in the night

845
00:31:45,269 --> 00:31:44,000
first think

846
00:31:48,710 --> 00:31:45,279
horses

847
00:31:50,470 --> 00:31:48,720
not zebras these people were looking for

848
00:31:51,590 --> 00:31:50,480
unicorns

849
00:31:53,269 --> 00:31:51,600
[Music]

850
00:31:54,950 --> 00:31:53,279
yeah but it's interesting because they

851
00:31:57,590 --> 00:31:54,960
in a way they didn't know about the

852
00:31:59,269 --> 00:31:57,600
horses in the the analogy because uh

853
00:32:01,269 --> 00:31:59,279
they were used to the zebras which are

854
00:32:03,350 --> 00:32:01,279
the kind of harassing people you know

855
00:32:05,029 --> 00:32:03,360
sneaking into their their rooms at night

856
00:32:07,669 --> 00:32:05,039
and so perhaps

857
00:32:09,430 --> 00:32:07,679
from their situation uh

858
00:32:10,870 --> 00:32:09,440
like like you were describing they were

859
00:32:13,110 --> 00:32:10,880
kind of primed

860
00:32:15,269 --> 00:32:13,120
to look for something like a zebra uh

861
00:32:18,149 --> 00:32:15,279
something that was actually harassing

862
00:32:20,149 --> 00:32:18,159
them rather than just real symptoms

863
00:32:22,149 --> 00:32:20,159
the first guy you know the patient zero

864
00:32:23,990 --> 00:32:22,159
you know he you described him as like he

865
00:32:25,909 --> 00:32:24,000
has a headache or whatever and he goes

866
00:32:27,269 --> 00:32:25,919
and talks to the doctor and describes

867
00:32:28,950 --> 00:32:27,279
what was happening

868
00:32:30,870 --> 00:32:28,960
for him that was like some real symptom

869
00:32:33,190 --> 00:32:30,880
i mean that wasn't you know

870
00:32:34,710 --> 00:32:33,200
a psychosomatic uh

871
00:32:36,870 --> 00:32:34,720
event of some sort that was something

872
00:32:38,710 --> 00:32:36,880
that was actually wrong with him and

873
00:32:40,310 --> 00:32:38,720
that's something i think that happens

874
00:32:41,110 --> 00:32:40,320
obviously with a lot of the people is

875
00:32:43,430 --> 00:32:41,120
that

876
00:32:45,350 --> 00:32:43,440
the symptoms they feel are are real like

877
00:32:47,430 --> 00:32:45,360
if someone has tinnitus

878
00:32:48,870 --> 00:32:47,440
uh it doesn't mean they're imagining it

879
00:32:50,549 --> 00:32:48,880
you know these are actually real

880
00:32:53,269 --> 00:32:50,559
physical things that are wrong with

881
00:32:55,190 --> 00:32:53,279
people and that's i think a big part of

882
00:32:56,710 --> 00:32:55,200
the problem

883
00:32:58,950 --> 00:32:56,720
that where we get this contested

884
00:33:00,630 --> 00:32:58,960
causation because people get very angry

885
00:33:02,630 --> 00:33:00,640
whether you think you're saying it's all

886
00:33:05,430 --> 00:33:02,640
in your head when really it isn't

887
00:33:07,750 --> 00:33:05,440
because the symptoms are real symptoms

888
00:33:10,389 --> 00:33:07,760
that's exactly right that's very

889
00:33:12,470 --> 00:33:10,399
perceptive and certainly

890
00:33:15,669 --> 00:33:12,480
some of what's happened in cuba is a

891
00:33:17,269 --> 00:33:15,679
redefining of everyday aches and pains

892
00:33:19,269 --> 00:33:17,279
or some ailment you're going to get in

893
00:33:21,029 --> 00:33:19,279
anyway and that's what's going on

894
00:33:22,950 --> 00:33:21,039
globally you know you got what happened

895
00:33:24,630 --> 00:33:22,960
in cuba which is

896
00:33:26,789 --> 00:33:24,640
primarily mass psychogenic illness

897
00:33:29,110 --> 00:33:26,799
involving neurological symptoms and then

898
00:33:32,789 --> 00:33:29,120
what you've got going on globally in

899
00:33:34,950 --> 00:33:32,799
2018 you had the incident in china at

900
00:33:36,630 --> 00:33:34,960
various diplomatic missions and

901
00:33:37,909 --> 00:33:36,640
embassies of the united states where

902
00:33:41,430 --> 00:33:37,919
people were claiming they had some

903
00:33:44,630 --> 00:33:41,440
unusual symptoms and then afterwards the

904
00:33:46,070 --> 00:33:44,640
state department issued this

905
00:33:47,190 --> 00:33:46,080
global alert

906
00:33:49,909 --> 00:33:47,200
to their

907
00:33:52,630 --> 00:33:49,919
embassy staff and intelligence officers

908
00:33:55,750 --> 00:33:52,640
around the world to be on the lookout

909
00:33:58,389 --> 00:33:55,760
for anomalous health incidents and they

910
00:34:00,870 --> 00:33:58,399
list the symptoms in havana syndrome

911
00:34:02,389 --> 00:34:00,880
which is a laundry list of symptoms that

912
00:34:03,909 --> 00:34:02,399
are very common

913
00:34:06,549 --> 00:34:03,919
and they also said if you hear an

914
00:34:09,270 --> 00:34:06,559
unusual sound or feel heat

915
00:34:11,349 --> 00:34:09,280
um that could be part of it as well so

916
00:34:14,389 --> 00:34:11,359
what you've got here now

917
00:34:16,710 --> 00:34:14,399
is a global experiment

918
00:34:18,470 --> 00:34:16,720
in mass suggestion

919
00:34:20,389 --> 00:34:18,480
and there's an old saying speaker of the

920
00:34:21,430 --> 00:34:20,399
devil and he's bound to appear

921
00:34:23,669 --> 00:34:21,440
now

922
00:34:26,550 --> 00:34:23,679
any diplomat or intelligence officer

923
00:34:28,790 --> 00:34:26,560
anywhere in the world who has

924
00:34:30,470 --> 00:34:28,800
an unusual health incident and i'm sure

925
00:34:32,310 --> 00:34:30,480
there's millions and millions of people

926
00:34:35,030 --> 00:34:32,320
around the world who every day have

927
00:34:37,270 --> 00:34:35,040
unusual health incidents they're

928
00:34:39,510 --> 00:34:37,280
immediately thinking havana syndrome and

929
00:34:42,550 --> 00:34:39,520
now more recently you've got the

930
00:34:45,589 --> 00:34:42,560
department of defense sending letters to

931
00:34:49,349 --> 00:34:45,599
2.9 million service personnel who served

932
00:34:52,389 --> 00:34:49,359
in the united states and contractors to

933
00:34:54,710 --> 00:34:52,399
please report any anomalous health

934
00:34:57,190 --> 00:34:54,720
incidents to them and

935
00:34:59,910 --> 00:34:57,200
look i smell

936
00:35:01,829 --> 00:34:59,920
potential compensation here too right

937
00:35:04,710 --> 00:35:01,839
like not only are people going to be

938
00:35:07,510 --> 00:35:04,720
redefining a variety of mundane symptoms

939
00:35:09,670 --> 00:35:07,520
or even non-mundane symptoms as havana

940
00:35:12,470 --> 00:35:09,680
syndrome related there's also a

941
00:35:15,190 --> 00:35:12,480
possibility that you could get some

942
00:35:19,589 --> 00:35:15,200
potential legal compensation here

943
00:35:21,910 --> 00:35:19,599
so this is a recipe for i predict tens

944
00:35:25,190 --> 00:35:21,920
of thousands of cases are going to be

945
00:35:27,030 --> 00:35:25,200
reported over the next few months to the

946
00:35:28,069 --> 00:35:27,040
state department of people all over the

947
00:35:30,550 --> 00:35:28,079
world

948
00:35:32,870 --> 00:35:30,560
american service personnel claiming that

949
00:35:36,150 --> 00:35:32,880
they were victims of havana syndrome

950
00:35:38,390 --> 00:35:36,160
yeah and yeah i think um you know i'm

951
00:35:41,030 --> 00:35:38,400
getting old here and

952
00:35:43,510 --> 00:35:41,040
as you get older you start having

953
00:35:45,910 --> 00:35:43,520
unusual health events

954
00:35:47,990 --> 00:35:45,920
and if it's the first time that has ever

955
00:35:51,589 --> 00:35:48,000
happened to you it can seem like a very

956
00:35:53,430 --> 00:35:51,599
strange thing like uh ocular migraines

957
00:35:55,910 --> 00:35:53,440
which are extremely strange the first

958
00:35:58,150 --> 00:35:55,920
time they happen and you could very

959
00:36:00,790 --> 00:35:58,160
easily imagine that your brain is being

960
00:36:03,910 --> 00:36:00,800
zapped by some uh microwave weapon

961
00:36:05,910 --> 00:36:03,920
because you see this weird crawling uh

962
00:36:07,430 --> 00:36:05,920
in your your vision that you can't see

963
00:36:08,870 --> 00:36:07,440
around and it

964
00:36:10,390 --> 00:36:08,880
doesn't go away and then you start to

965
00:36:13,750 --> 00:36:10,400
get these headaches

966
00:36:15,270 --> 00:36:13,760
um but there will be people because

967
00:36:16,310 --> 00:36:15,280
everyone's getting older who are going

968
00:36:18,630 --> 00:36:16,320
to start

969
00:36:19,910 --> 00:36:18,640
having these these weird sensations like

970
00:36:23,190 --> 00:36:19,920
i had

971
00:36:24,950 --> 00:36:23,200
this phantom cell phone sensations like

972
00:36:26,630 --> 00:36:24,960
you think you your phone is buzzing in

973
00:36:28,230 --> 00:36:26,640
your your your

974
00:36:30,230 --> 00:36:28,240
pocket but it's not

975
00:36:32,710 --> 00:36:30,240
and people will start attributing that

976
00:36:35,710 --> 00:36:32,720
to these things so i think you're right

977
00:36:37,430 --> 00:36:35,720
if it maintains this kind of aura of

978
00:36:39,750 --> 00:36:37,440
respectability

979
00:36:41,750 --> 00:36:39,760
that this is a real thing then we're

980
00:36:43,190 --> 00:36:41,760
going to get a lot of cases

981
00:36:44,550 --> 00:36:43,200
yeah you know for

982
00:36:47,030 --> 00:36:44,560
all my life

983
00:36:49,109 --> 00:36:47,040
maybe twice a year i and i grew up on a

984
00:36:51,510 --> 00:36:49,119
farm in upstate new york i'd be sitting

985
00:36:54,470 --> 00:36:51,520
there and all of a sudden i'd hear this

986
00:36:57,750 --> 00:36:54,480
like high-pitched sound and my hearing

987
00:36:59,910 --> 00:36:57,760
would just disappear for a few seconds

988
00:37:01,510 --> 00:36:59,920
and then maybe after 15 or 20 seconds it

989
00:37:05,030 --> 00:37:01,520
would be over

990
00:37:06,470 --> 00:37:05,040
and i often wondered what that was

991
00:37:08,950 --> 00:37:06,480
and then as i was writing the book i

992
00:37:10,870 --> 00:37:08,960
mentioned it to professor balo at ucla

993
00:37:13,430 --> 00:37:10,880
and he goes oh because that's transient

994
00:37:15,589 --> 00:37:13,440
tinnitus because that's very common

995
00:37:18,150 --> 00:37:15,599
and uh since then i've asked my students

996
00:37:20,550 --> 00:37:18,160
uh has anybody ever had a sensation like

997
00:37:23,109 --> 00:37:20,560
that in more than half the hands usually

998
00:37:24,470 --> 00:37:23,119
about two-thirds of the hands are raised

999
00:37:26,710 --> 00:37:24,480
and there's quite a few students who say

1000
00:37:27,910 --> 00:37:26,720
they get it two or three times a month

1001
00:37:29,910 --> 00:37:27,920
um

1002
00:37:31,670 --> 00:37:29,920
it's just very common but you know you

1003
00:37:33,829 --> 00:37:31,680
kind of forget about it and then it

1004
00:37:35,109 --> 00:37:33,839
happens again and if somebody had told

1005
00:37:38,390 --> 00:37:35,119
me oh

1006
00:37:41,030 --> 00:37:38,400
you uh could be the subject of a sonic

1007
00:37:42,390 --> 00:37:41,040
or microwave attack and then that

1008
00:37:45,270 --> 00:37:42,400
happens

1009
00:37:47,910 --> 00:37:45,280
then you can easily redefine that just

1010
00:37:50,710 --> 00:37:47,920
like people go outside all the time

1011
00:37:52,390 --> 00:37:50,720
they look up at the sky they see venus

1012
00:37:54,230 --> 00:37:52,400
they look at the woods

1013
00:37:55,109 --> 00:37:54,240
they see trees

1014
00:37:58,870 --> 00:37:55,119
and

1015
00:38:01,430 --> 00:37:58,880
they don't ordinarily think ufo or

1016
00:38:02,950 --> 00:38:01,440
bigfoot but if there's a flap going on

1017
00:38:05,510 --> 00:38:02,960
and people are claiming to see it in

1018
00:38:07,430 --> 00:38:05,520
your area you can easily

1019
00:38:08,950 --> 00:38:07,440
start then staring at venus when you

1020
00:38:10,630 --> 00:38:08,960
ordinarily don't and it can appear to

1021
00:38:13,670 --> 00:38:10,640
move with the auto kinetic effect you

1022
00:38:16,310 --> 00:38:13,680
know as we know human perception is very

1023
00:38:18,710 --> 00:38:16,320
fallible and subject to error human

1024
00:38:20,950 --> 00:38:18,720
beings often see things that aren't

1025
00:38:22,630 --> 00:38:20,960
there hear things that aren't there

1026
00:38:23,670 --> 00:38:22,640
experience things that that didn't

1027
00:38:25,349 --> 00:38:23,680
happen

1028
00:38:27,430 --> 00:38:25,359
yeah and if you haven't experienced it

1029
00:38:29,990 --> 00:38:27,440
uh it's it's

1030
00:38:31,589 --> 00:38:30,000
very very strange there was actually a

1031
00:38:33,910 --> 00:38:31,599
i was going to mention this earlier in

1032
00:38:35,430 --> 00:38:33,920
the context of the media uh kind of i

1033
00:38:37,030 --> 00:38:35,440
think there's a little bit of a sea

1034
00:38:39,270 --> 00:38:37,040
change in the media there was an article

1035
00:38:41,349 --> 00:38:39,280
today by philip bump

1036
00:38:43,829 --> 00:38:41,359
in the washington post

1037
00:38:46,470 --> 00:38:43,839
and he was basically making the case for

1038
00:38:49,270 --> 00:38:46,480
the skeptical uh point of view basically

1039
00:38:51,109 --> 00:38:49,280
putting your your argument forward and

1040
00:38:52,710 --> 00:38:51,119
the washington post previous i think all

1041
00:38:54,550 --> 00:38:52,720
of their articles have been very much

1042
00:38:57,270 --> 00:38:54,560
you know on the train of havana syndrome

1043
00:38:59,510 --> 00:38:57,280
is is is some kind of energy weapon type

1044
00:39:00,630 --> 00:38:59,520
thing but philip bump uh he starts out

1045
00:39:03,030 --> 00:39:00,640
describing

1046
00:39:04,150 --> 00:39:03,040
how when he was younger he had a panic

1047
00:39:05,750 --> 00:39:04,160
attack

1048
00:39:07,589 --> 00:39:05,760
and when he first happened to him he

1049
00:39:09,270 --> 00:39:07,599
didn't know what was happening he just

1050
00:39:10,950 --> 00:39:09,280
he just felt like he was dying and he

1051
00:39:12,310 --> 00:39:10,960
couldn't breathe and he was his heart

1052
00:39:14,470 --> 00:39:12,320
was racing

1053
00:39:16,150 --> 00:39:14,480
and he was saying essentially the same

1054
00:39:18,550 --> 00:39:16,160
thing that this

1055
00:39:20,950 --> 00:39:18,560
uh is something that you could very

1056
00:39:23,030 --> 00:39:20,960
easily be convinced that this panic

1057
00:39:26,150 --> 00:39:23,040
attack if you've never had it before was

1058
00:39:27,990 --> 00:39:26,160
some kind of of actual attack as from

1059
00:39:31,510 --> 00:39:28,000
you know if people said this is the

1060
00:39:33,270 --> 00:39:31,520
symptoms of being hit by a beam then you

1061
00:39:35,190 --> 00:39:33,280
know you would take it as that

1062
00:39:37,109 --> 00:39:35,200
lots of people who have panic attacks

1063
00:39:38,870 --> 00:39:37,119
they think it's a heart attack

1064
00:39:40,790 --> 00:39:38,880
simply because they've never had a panic

1065
00:39:42,230 --> 00:39:40,800
attack before and you know later they

1066
00:39:44,230 --> 00:39:42,240
start to recognize the symptoms of a

1067
00:39:45,910 --> 00:39:44,240
panic attack but like i was saying

1068
00:39:48,630 --> 00:39:45,920
earlier there's always going to be this

1069
00:39:50,870 --> 00:39:48,640
some person who has some experience for

1070
00:39:52,870 --> 00:39:50,880
the first time and for them it's very

1071
00:39:55,910 --> 00:39:52,880
novel and very frightening and that is

1072
00:39:57,510 --> 00:39:55,920
going to lead to you know in combination

1073
00:39:58,950 --> 00:39:57,520
with the doctors saying look out for

1074
00:40:00,790 --> 00:39:58,960
strange symptoms

1075
00:40:02,470 --> 00:40:00,800
they are going to get uh

1076
00:40:04,550 --> 00:40:02,480
that belief you know building up from

1077
00:40:07,190 --> 00:40:04,560
that just think about it you've had

1078
00:40:09,990 --> 00:40:07,200
reports now in like 14 or 15 countries

1079
00:40:11,430 --> 00:40:10,000
so there's somebody from russia or china

1080
00:40:13,589 --> 00:40:11,440
that's got some

1081
00:40:16,150 --> 00:40:13,599
microwave device and they're taking it

1082
00:40:18,790 --> 00:40:16,160
down to colombia yeah and pointing it at

1083
00:40:21,270 --> 00:40:18,800
some diplomats family at night while the

1084
00:40:23,190 --> 00:40:21,280
woman's washing the dishes or taking it

1085
00:40:25,990 --> 00:40:23,200
to kyrgyzstan

1086
00:40:27,910 --> 00:40:26,000
and poland and all these different it

1087
00:40:30,150 --> 00:40:27,920
just and i think

1088
00:40:32,150 --> 00:40:30,160
well some people have said to me oh

1089
00:40:34,069 --> 00:40:32,160
all these cases now it's just proof that

1090
00:40:35,829 --> 00:40:34,079
it's true no it's not

1091
00:40:37,190 --> 00:40:35,839
it's kind of like somebody claiming to

1092
00:40:38,950 --> 00:40:37,200
see bigfoot

1093
00:40:41,270 --> 00:40:38,960
outside your home and then there's

1094
00:40:42,710 --> 00:40:41,280
another sighting like 50 miles away and

1095
00:40:44,150 --> 00:40:42,720
another one over here another one over

1096
00:40:47,430 --> 00:40:44,160
here next thing i've already seen

1097
00:40:49,589 --> 00:40:47,440
bigfoot it um to me it's evidence that

1098
00:40:51,750 --> 00:40:49,599
it's not real but the other frustrating

1099
00:40:53,270 --> 00:40:51,760
thing is people keep saying to me oh but

1100
00:40:54,230 --> 00:40:53,280
the government has some kind of secret

1101
00:40:56,309 --> 00:40:54,240
weapon

1102
00:40:57,670 --> 00:40:56,319
um they've been working on microwaves

1103
00:41:00,069 --> 00:40:57,680
and they've been working on acoustical

1104
00:41:03,030 --> 00:41:00,079
weapons the literature on these weapons

1105
00:41:04,470 --> 00:41:03,040
shows they don't work very well

1106
00:41:06,470 --> 00:41:04,480
and

1107
00:41:08,150 --> 00:41:06,480
they haven't been developed very well

1108
00:41:11,910 --> 00:41:08,160
and there's something called the laws of

1109
00:41:14,630 --> 00:41:11,920
physics you simply cannot target a

1110
00:41:16,630 --> 00:41:14,640
specific individual from a distance

1111
00:41:20,150 --> 00:41:16,640
inside a large hotel

1112
00:41:22,230 --> 00:41:20,160
with a microwave or sonic weapon i mean

1113
00:41:25,349 --> 00:41:22,240
it just doesn't work yeah i think

1114
00:41:27,430 --> 00:41:25,359
another big strike against the theory is

1115
00:41:29,190 --> 00:41:27,440
it varies a lot by individual like some

1116
00:41:30,470 --> 00:41:29,200
people hear a noise and some people

1117
00:41:31,829 --> 00:41:30,480
don't hear a noise if you look at the

1118
00:41:34,150 --> 00:41:31,839
list of people in in one of those

1119
00:41:36,230 --> 00:41:34,160
studies where they they broke it down by

1120
00:41:37,829 --> 00:41:36,240
you know who heard what

1121
00:41:39,910 --> 00:41:37,839
some people heard a high pitched noise

1122
00:41:41,349 --> 00:41:39,920
some people heard a low pitch noise and

1123
00:41:43,030 --> 00:41:41,359
within those there were different

1124
00:41:44,790 --> 00:41:43,040
different versions when they described

1125
00:41:46,829 --> 00:41:44,800
it as like grinding or scraping or

1126
00:41:49,829 --> 00:41:46,839
beeping some people didn't hear any

1127
00:41:51,670 --> 00:41:49,839
noise and then the symptoms that come

1128
00:41:53,829 --> 00:41:51,680
from that are also very different and

1129
00:41:54,870 --> 00:41:53,839
you would expect if it's a syndrome

1130
00:41:56,710 --> 00:41:54,880
that

1131
00:41:58,710 --> 00:41:56,720
it would be the same thing and this is

1132
00:42:01,270 --> 00:41:58,720
this is this type of thing we we saw in

1133
00:42:04,870 --> 00:42:01,280
the past with with morgellons disease

1134
00:42:07,589 --> 00:42:04,880
is that you get this wide variety

1135
00:42:09,750 --> 00:42:07,599
of symptoms and because people want to

1136
00:42:11,190 --> 00:42:09,760
kind of get into on it now they want to

1137
00:42:13,190 --> 00:42:11,200
have this good explanation for what's

1138
00:42:15,430 --> 00:42:13,200
going on and so they they try to

1139
00:42:17,190 --> 00:42:15,440
shoehorn everything into it so with more

1140
00:42:19,589 --> 00:42:17,200
gallons it ended up you know morgan

1141
00:42:21,430 --> 00:42:19,599
started out as this disease where fibers

1142
00:42:23,990 --> 00:42:21,440
were coming from people's skin

1143
00:42:26,630 --> 00:42:24,000
and they ended up with a kind of an a

1144
00:42:28,150 --> 00:42:26,640
fiber uh version of morgellons where you

1145
00:42:29,349 --> 00:42:28,160
have more gallons but you don't have the

1146
00:42:31,589 --> 00:42:29,359
fibers

1147
00:42:32,870 --> 00:42:31,599
but you know what was that it was it but

1148
00:42:34,230 --> 00:42:32,880
they just ended up shoehorning

1149
00:42:35,349 --> 00:42:34,240
everything in and that's happened i

1150
00:42:37,270 --> 00:42:35,359
think with

1151
00:42:39,670 --> 00:42:37,280
with havana syndrome

1152
00:42:43,030 --> 00:42:39,680
is that it becomes very

1153
00:42:45,190 --> 00:42:43,040
encompassing it it almost like it's just

1154
00:42:47,510 --> 00:42:45,200
something a bit strange happens and you

1155
00:42:49,109 --> 00:42:47,520
don't feel well

1156
00:42:50,710 --> 00:42:49,119
it doesn't really make any sense in

1157
00:42:52,470 --> 00:42:50,720
terms of you know nailing it down for

1158
00:42:55,510 --> 00:42:52,480
what's going on

1159
00:42:58,390 --> 00:42:55,520
this is a classic case of bad science

1160
00:43:01,349 --> 00:42:58,400
shoddy journalism and bad government for

1161
00:43:04,550 --> 00:43:01,359
example some of the interviews that were

1162
00:43:06,470 --> 00:43:04,560
given by people associated with the jama

1163
00:43:08,710 --> 00:43:06,480
study one of the researchers was saying

1164
00:43:10,150 --> 00:43:08,720
well it can't be mass psychogenic

1165
00:43:12,710 --> 00:43:10,160
illness because there was no evidence

1166
00:43:14,230 --> 00:43:12,720
that the patients were colluding

1167
00:43:16,069 --> 00:43:14,240
i mean i mean

1168
00:43:18,309 --> 00:43:16,079
that's that's ridiculous they may be

1169
00:43:21,270 --> 00:43:18,319
licensed neurologists and experts on

1170
00:43:23,510 --> 00:43:21,280
neurology but they that's like going to

1171
00:43:25,270 --> 00:43:23,520
a geologist and saying there's no such

1172
00:43:26,710 --> 00:43:25,280
thing as earthquakes or something i mean

1173
00:43:29,510 --> 00:43:26,720
it's so far

1174
00:43:30,950 --> 00:43:29,520
removed from mainstream science that's

1175
00:43:32,790 --> 00:43:30,960
kind of you know they don't know the

1176
00:43:36,069 --> 00:43:32,800
literature on mass psychogenic illness

1177
00:43:38,470 --> 00:43:36,079
there's one researcher beatrice golub at

1178
00:43:40,950 --> 00:43:38,480
the university of san diego she was the

1179
00:43:43,510 --> 00:43:40,960
first one to propose publicly the

1180
00:43:45,190 --> 00:43:43,520
microwave explanation i asked her at a

1181
00:43:46,550 --> 00:43:45,200
conference i said so what do you think

1182
00:43:48,870 --> 00:43:46,560
of the mass psychogenic illness

1183
00:43:50,470 --> 00:43:48,880
explanation she said uh she doesn't

1184
00:43:51,829 --> 00:43:50,480
believe in mass psychogenic illness she

1185
00:43:52,950 --> 00:43:51,839
doesn't believe it's a real thing and

1186
00:43:55,109 --> 00:43:52,960
i'm like

1187
00:43:57,109 --> 00:43:55,119
but a quarter of all patients who go to

1188
00:43:58,870 --> 00:43:57,119
neurologists are diagnosed with

1189
00:44:00,470 --> 00:43:58,880
functional neurological neurological

1190
00:44:03,270 --> 00:44:00,480
disorders they don't have any

1191
00:44:06,230 --> 00:44:03,280
identifiable organic condition

1192
00:44:08,550 --> 00:44:06,240
and um you know that's extreme it's hard

1193
00:44:10,630 --> 00:44:08,560
to believe that there are medical

1194
00:44:13,990 --> 00:44:10,640
professionals out there

1195
00:44:16,309 --> 00:44:14,000
in the year 2021 who believe that uh

1196
00:44:17,430 --> 00:44:16,319
mass psychogenic illness is an imaginary

1197
00:44:18,710 --> 00:44:17,440
condition

1198
00:44:20,230 --> 00:44:18,720
it it's almost like they're portraying

1199
00:44:21,910 --> 00:44:20,240
like like like you are a french

1200
00:44:23,349 --> 00:44:21,920
scientist and you know all this this

1201
00:44:25,109 --> 00:44:23,359
previous work that we've had on mass

1202
00:44:26,630 --> 00:44:25,119
psychogenic illness is some kind of like

1203
00:44:28,710 --> 00:44:26,640
strange fringe

1204
00:44:31,430 --> 00:44:28,720
uh is this is there kind of like a

1205
00:44:33,589 --> 00:44:31,440
divide amongst doctors

1206
00:44:35,589 --> 00:44:33,599
uh as and medical professionals as to

1207
00:44:37,349 --> 00:44:35,599
the kind of the general acceptance of

1208
00:44:38,309 --> 00:44:37,359
the existence of mass psychogenic

1209
00:44:40,790 --> 00:44:38,319
illness

1210
00:44:43,270 --> 00:44:40,800
look that is the first time i have ever

1211
00:44:45,589 --> 00:44:43,280
encountered a medical professional in my

1212
00:44:48,309 --> 00:44:45,599
life doubting the existence of mass

1213
00:44:50,390 --> 00:44:48,319
psychogenic illness i mean it's just

1214
00:44:52,150 --> 00:44:50,400
so well documented throughout throughout

1215
00:44:54,390 --> 00:44:52,160
history what about departments of

1216
00:44:55,910 --> 00:44:54,400
psychological medicine it's just an

1217
00:44:58,790 --> 00:44:55,920
extreme

1218
00:45:02,150 --> 00:44:58,800
radical unconventional position for

1219
00:45:04,390 --> 00:45:02,160
someone to take who is in a at a major

1220
00:45:06,710 --> 00:45:04,400
university and holding a position in in

1221
00:45:09,270 --> 00:45:06,720
medicine i mean it's just highly unusual

1222
00:45:11,349 --> 00:45:09,280
it would be up there with john mack who

1223
00:45:13,190 --> 00:45:11,359
was at harvard the psychiatrist

1224
00:45:15,430 --> 00:45:13,200
believing and that people are being

1225
00:45:18,390 --> 00:45:15,440
abducted by space aliens or the

1226
00:45:20,069 --> 00:45:18,400
anthropologists um his last name is

1227
00:45:22,550 --> 00:45:20,079
meldrum is at one of the universities

1228
00:45:25,670 --> 00:45:22,560
who who believes in bigfoot i mean

1229
00:45:28,230 --> 00:45:25,680
that's where i would parallel uh golob's

1230
00:45:31,270 --> 00:45:28,240
uh position there i mean it's certainly

1231
00:45:33,670 --> 00:45:31,280
very very rare that medical

1232
00:45:37,349 --> 00:45:33,680
professionals would would hold such a

1233
00:45:39,270 --> 00:45:37,359
unusual unconventional position

1234
00:45:42,150 --> 00:45:39,280
and yeah that seems to be the position

1235
00:45:44,470 --> 00:45:42,160
that the the politicians have kind of

1236
00:45:47,510 --> 00:45:44,480
glommed onto and they're kind of

1237
00:45:51,109 --> 00:45:47,520
preferring that and promoting it

1238
00:45:52,710 --> 00:45:51,119
uh so how do we how do we or how do you

1239
00:45:55,030 --> 00:45:52,720
how do you move forward with this how do

1240
00:45:56,230 --> 00:45:55,040
we actually uh get past this i mean you

1241
00:45:59,030 --> 00:45:56,240
you talk about you know the wheels of

1242
00:46:01,109 --> 00:45:59,040
science doing their natural thing but is

1243
00:46:03,510 --> 00:46:01,119
there some uh approach we should be

1244
00:46:06,150 --> 00:46:03,520
doing in educating the media

1245
00:46:08,550 --> 00:46:06,160
uh and and even medical professionals as

1246
00:46:10,470 --> 00:46:08,560
to you know what's actually going on

1247
00:46:12,309 --> 00:46:10,480
well professor balon myself would be

1248
00:46:14,950 --> 00:46:12,319
happy to testify before the senate

1249
00:46:16,950 --> 00:46:14,960
foreign relations committee and honestly

1250
00:46:18,790 --> 00:46:16,960
i think that that would be the end of

1251
00:46:20,630 --> 00:46:18,800
havana syndrome i really do because we

1252
00:46:22,870 --> 00:46:20,640
would point out what's been going on

1253
00:46:25,829 --> 00:46:22,880
here but i get a sense

1254
00:46:28,309 --> 00:46:25,839
over the past week that uh a lot of the

1255
00:46:30,790 --> 00:46:28,319
media now is starting to turn skeptical

1256
00:46:33,349 --> 00:46:30,800
there are some major articles coming out

1257
00:46:34,950 --> 00:46:33,359
that are much more skeptical because the

1258
00:46:36,790 --> 00:46:34,960
assumption always is when you say

1259
00:46:38,069 --> 00:46:36,800
psychogenic illness this guy doesn't

1260
00:46:39,589 --> 00:46:38,079
know what he's talking about what about

1261
00:46:40,470 --> 00:46:39,599
the brain damage what about the hearing

1262
00:46:41,430 --> 00:46:40,480
loss

1263
00:46:44,550 --> 00:46:41,440
not

1264
00:46:45,670 --> 00:46:44,560
true when you actually take the time

1265
00:46:48,870 --> 00:46:45,680
to

1266
00:46:50,230 --> 00:46:48,880
look at those claims absolutely i would

1267
00:46:51,190 --> 00:46:50,240
bet my life

1268
00:46:53,030 --> 00:46:51,200
that

1269
00:46:55,510 --> 00:46:53,040
i just i know i've seen the studies it's

1270
00:46:57,910 --> 00:46:55,520
not true it has not been demonstrated

1271
00:46:59,589 --> 00:46:57,920
it's not speculation you've got the

1272
00:47:02,550 --> 00:46:59,599
situation where

1273
00:47:04,950 --> 00:47:02,560
now we know because the fbi report has

1274
00:47:07,589 --> 00:47:04,960
been leaked they concluded they got some

1275
00:47:09,670 --> 00:47:07,599
pretty smart people in the fbi they saw

1276
00:47:11,829 --> 00:47:09,680
all the evidence as well probably more

1277
00:47:15,109 --> 00:47:11,839
than we even had and they concluded

1278
00:47:17,910 --> 00:47:15,119
exactly as we concluded mass psychogenic

1279
00:47:19,829 --> 00:47:17,920
illness and i really believe that you've

1280
00:47:21,430 --> 00:47:19,839
got a lot of people in the intelligence

1281
00:47:24,150 --> 00:47:21,440
community right now

1282
00:47:26,470 --> 00:47:24,160
who are convinced it's mass psychogenic

1283
00:47:27,829 --> 00:47:26,480
illness too on the weight of evidence

1284
00:47:30,870 --> 00:47:27,839
however

1285
00:47:33,109 --> 00:47:30,880
no one wants to say anything because no

1286
00:47:34,630 --> 00:47:33,119
one wants to say the h word

1287
00:47:35,430 --> 00:47:34,640
and yeah because it gets you into

1288
00:47:36,470 --> 00:47:35,440
trouble

1289
00:47:39,430 --> 00:47:36,480
and

1290
00:47:41,589 --> 00:47:39,440
pension

1291
00:47:44,549 --> 00:47:41,599
it reminds me in a way of the situation

1292
00:47:45,589 --> 00:47:44,559
with uh with ufos uh you know that

1293
00:47:47,589 --> 00:47:45,599
there's

1294
00:47:50,790 --> 00:47:47,599
some people within the pentagon who do

1295
00:47:52,630 --> 00:47:50,800
believe in in ufos as being

1296
00:47:55,109 --> 00:47:52,640
aliens essentially

1297
00:47:55,910 --> 00:47:55,119
uh but i mean the majority of people

1298
00:47:59,190 --> 00:47:55,920
there

1299
00:48:01,510 --> 00:47:59,200
isn't very good evidence of that and

1300
00:48:03,270 --> 00:48:01,520
it's mostly just normal clutter in the

1301
00:48:05,349 --> 00:48:03,280
airspace and yet

1302
00:48:07,750 --> 00:48:05,359
these people still manage to persist and

1303
00:48:10,069 --> 00:48:07,760
the media still runs with it as if it's

1304
00:48:11,589 --> 00:48:10,079
this this major thing that's going on

1305
00:48:13,829 --> 00:48:11,599
and it's almost like people don't want

1306
00:48:14,630 --> 00:48:13,839
to rock the boat but it feels like they

1307
00:48:17,750 --> 00:48:14,640
should

1308
00:48:19,510 --> 00:48:17,760
so uh that was a very interesting uh

1309
00:48:21,349 --> 00:48:19,520
interview i did a few questions from

1310
00:48:23,030 --> 00:48:21,359
twitter if you've got a few moments uh

1311
00:48:24,470 --> 00:48:23,040
yep sure a few extra questions they're

1312
00:48:26,230 --> 00:48:24,480
kind of related

1313
00:48:28,950 --> 00:48:26,240
uh there was one interesting one you

1314
00:48:30,630 --> 00:48:28,960
also made a bet back in the early days

1315
00:48:33,589 --> 00:48:30,640
of coronavirus

1316
00:48:35,510 --> 00:48:33,599
uh that when when a vaccine came along

1317
00:48:37,190 --> 00:48:35,520
he said there would be

1318
00:48:38,950 --> 00:48:37,200
let's see an epidemic of outbreaks of

1319
00:48:40,790 --> 00:48:38,960
mass hysteria of mass psychogenic

1320
00:48:43,109 --> 00:48:40,800
illness how do you think that that

1321
00:48:45,109 --> 00:48:43,119
prediction played out are we seeing

1322
00:48:47,990 --> 00:48:45,119
there have been some

1323
00:48:51,589 --> 00:48:48,000
minor reports of mass of psychogenic

1324
00:48:54,390 --> 00:48:51,599
illness and anxiety at stations nothing

1325
00:48:57,190 --> 00:48:54,400
major however with something like that

1326
00:48:58,470 --> 00:48:57,200
however the coronavirus outbreak has

1327
00:49:00,549 --> 00:48:58,480
triggered an outbreak of mass

1328
00:49:03,829 --> 00:49:00,559
psychogenic illness and a major global

1329
00:49:06,470 --> 00:49:03,839
one and that's the recent one involving

1330
00:49:08,790 --> 00:49:06,480
psychogenic ticks in young girls so

1331
00:49:11,430 --> 00:49:08,800
you've got this outbreak of of hundreds

1332
00:49:14,150 --> 00:49:11,440
of cases globally involving young girls

1333
00:49:16,390 --> 00:49:14,160
and young women who have been watching

1334
00:49:17,750 --> 00:49:16,400
during the coronavirus pandemic uh

1335
00:49:18,870 --> 00:49:17,760
because they're spending more screen

1336
00:49:22,069 --> 00:49:18,880
time now

1337
00:49:24,309 --> 00:49:22,079
watching videos of people with tourettes

1338
00:49:26,950 --> 00:49:24,319
or claiming to have tourette's and then

1339
00:49:29,109 --> 00:49:26,960
they suddenly in their teenage years

1340
00:49:31,349 --> 00:49:29,119
uh in early twenties are getting

1341
00:49:33,349 --> 00:49:31,359
explosive tourette's like syndrome

1342
00:49:34,069 --> 00:49:33,359
symptoms well that's not tourette's i

1343
00:49:36,790 --> 00:49:34,079
mean

1344
00:49:38,630 --> 00:49:36,800
these are clearly psychogenic and there

1345
00:49:40,790 --> 00:49:38,640
have been several journal articles one

1346
00:49:43,510 --> 00:49:40,800
in the british medical journal uh

1347
00:49:45,910 --> 00:49:43,520
recently uh discussing this outbreak of

1348
00:49:48,710 --> 00:49:45,920
psychogenic ticks and it's been linked

1349
00:49:51,510 --> 00:49:48,720
to the coronavirus pandemic because of

1350
00:49:52,630 --> 00:49:51,520
the general uh background stress with

1351
00:49:54,790 --> 00:49:52,640
you know maybe your grandparents are

1352
00:49:58,390 --> 00:49:54,800
going to die or something but also

1353
00:50:01,349 --> 00:49:58,400
um being locked down being online more

1354
00:50:03,109 --> 00:50:01,359
and uh watching these videos

1355
00:50:04,150 --> 00:50:03,119
yeah it's fascinating uh

1356
00:50:07,589 --> 00:50:04,160
so

1357
00:50:09,670 --> 00:50:07,599
were there things in the past that um

1358
00:50:14,549 --> 00:50:09,680
were essentially classified as mass

1359
00:50:19,510 --> 00:50:17,270
oh there have been uh conditions in the

1360
00:50:22,710 --> 00:50:19,520
past that were initially thought to have

1361
00:50:24,470 --> 00:50:22,720
possibly been psychogenic but look the

1362
00:50:26,790 --> 00:50:24,480
if you look at the literature on mass

1363
00:50:28,390 --> 00:50:26,800
psychogenic illness i mean we have a

1364
00:50:30,790 --> 00:50:28,400
good understanding

1365
00:50:31,750 --> 00:50:30,800
of mass psychogenic illness there's a

1366
00:50:34,309 --> 00:50:31,760
very

1367
00:50:36,710 --> 00:50:34,319
good historical literature on it and

1368
00:50:38,870 --> 00:50:36,720
there are a number of conditions today

1369
00:50:41,829 --> 00:50:38,880
that are contentious

1370
00:50:44,710 --> 00:50:41,839
uh right that are suspected to have a

1371
00:50:48,790 --> 00:50:44,720
psychogenic element for example gulf war

1372
00:50:51,589 --> 00:50:48,800
syndrome for example uh fibromyalgia for

1373
00:50:52,549 --> 00:50:51,599
example chronic fatigue syndrome but

1374
00:50:54,710 --> 00:50:52,559
again

1375
00:50:56,630 --> 00:50:54,720
you i think you have a um a

1376
00:50:59,270 --> 00:50:56,640
constellation of ailments in there as

1377
00:51:01,910 --> 00:50:59,280
well i mean look at the the epidemic of

1378
00:51:03,190 --> 00:51:01,920
repetition strain that happened in

1379
00:51:05,510 --> 00:51:03,200
australia

1380
00:51:08,069 --> 00:51:05,520
uh during the 1980s and now you don't

1381
00:51:09,910 --> 00:51:08,079
have it anymore i know that's weird it's

1382
00:51:11,829 --> 00:51:09,920
uh you know what it reminds me of it

1383
00:51:13,430 --> 00:51:11,839
reminds me of people used to see sea

1384
00:51:14,790 --> 00:51:13,440
serpents all the time

1385
00:51:17,990 --> 00:51:14,800
right on these ships there's big

1386
00:51:19,589 --> 00:51:18,000
pictures and carvings of the sea serpent

1387
00:51:21,109 --> 00:51:19,599
where did all the sea serpent sightings

1388
00:51:23,190 --> 00:51:21,119
go

1389
00:51:25,030 --> 00:51:23,200
yeah i used to be worried about getting

1390
00:51:26,470 --> 00:51:25,040
like uh rsi

1391
00:51:29,030 --> 00:51:26,480
uh because i did a lot of typing as a

1392
00:51:30,950 --> 00:51:29,040
computer programmer but uh it seemed to

1393
00:51:32,150 --> 00:51:30,960
like you said it seemed to go away

1394
00:51:34,549 --> 00:51:32,160
it's one of those things that was a

1395
00:51:36,309 --> 00:51:34,559
problem for a while and then not and i

1396
00:51:38,710 --> 00:51:36,319
think i think you mentioned in the book

1397
00:51:40,230 --> 00:51:38,720
like there was um a problem not a

1398
00:51:41,910 --> 00:51:40,240
problem but a syndra a telephone

1399
00:51:43,990 --> 00:51:41,920
syndrome where people when they first

1400
00:51:46,309 --> 00:51:44,000
started using telephones

1401
00:51:48,309 --> 00:51:46,319
they would develop headaches

1402
00:51:50,230 --> 00:51:48,319
uh but after a few years

1403
00:51:52,470 --> 00:51:50,240
you know nobody got them anymore because

1404
00:51:54,790 --> 00:51:52,480
they weren't so worried about it

1405
00:51:56,470 --> 00:51:54,800
uh it's just you know it's people are

1406
00:51:58,150 --> 00:51:56,480
looking for it and then they you know

1407
00:52:00,630 --> 00:51:58,160
when you look at something you find it

1408
00:52:01,670 --> 00:52:00,640
exactly in human beings you know as you

1409
00:52:02,710 --> 00:52:01,680
would know

1410
00:52:05,270 --> 00:52:02,720
as a

1411
00:52:07,190 --> 00:52:05,280
member of the skeptical community human

1412
00:52:09,030 --> 00:52:07,200
beings are very

1413
00:52:11,349 --> 00:52:09,040
fallible creatures

1414
00:52:14,150 --> 00:52:11,359
um you know eyewitness perception as

1415
00:52:17,190 --> 00:52:14,160
i've mentioned ear witness perception

1416
00:52:19,430 --> 00:52:17,200
the other day there was a report from

1417
00:52:20,309 --> 00:52:19,440
one of the foreign embassies one of the

1418
00:52:21,430 --> 00:52:20,319
women

1419
00:52:22,870 --> 00:52:21,440
was saying

1420
00:52:25,030 --> 00:52:22,880
i think she was one of the early victims

1421
00:52:26,950 --> 00:52:25,040
of havana syndrome she said it was like

1422
00:52:28,950 --> 00:52:26,960
an invisible hand reached out and

1423
00:52:30,950 --> 00:52:28,960
grabbed her or touched her well that

1424
00:52:33,030 --> 00:52:30,960
sounds like right out of a paranormal

1425
00:52:35,030 --> 00:52:33,040
documentary that you see on tv you know

1426
00:52:36,309 --> 00:52:35,040
where they go to these houses and

1427
00:52:37,910 --> 00:52:36,319
there's a

1428
00:52:40,230 --> 00:52:37,920
heat signature in the corner well that

1429
00:52:43,270 --> 00:52:40,240
must but that must be proof of a ghost

1430
00:52:44,470 --> 00:52:43,280
and life after death right um

1431
00:52:46,549 --> 00:52:44,480
and so

1432
00:52:48,150 --> 00:52:46,559
all this ambiguity

1433
00:52:50,870 --> 00:52:48,160
and you know when you look at things

1434
00:52:52,069 --> 00:52:50,880
like haunted houses there's such a will

1435
00:52:54,069 --> 00:52:52,079
to believe

1436
00:52:55,190 --> 00:52:54,079
because it's not just that there are

1437
00:52:57,910 --> 00:52:55,200
ghosts

1438
00:53:01,589 --> 00:52:57,920
it's proof of life after death

1439
00:53:02,630 --> 00:53:01,599
and there's such a powerful

1440
00:53:03,430 --> 00:53:02,640
lore

1441
00:53:05,030 --> 00:53:03,440
to

1442
00:53:07,589 --> 00:53:05,040
believe

1443
00:53:09,829 --> 00:53:07,599
yeah yeah and i think

1444
00:53:12,549 --> 00:53:09,839
uh it's an understandable one as well

1445
00:53:14,790 --> 00:53:12,559
like you can you can see why people get

1446
00:53:17,109 --> 00:53:14,800
sucked into these things and i want to

1447
00:53:20,150 --> 00:53:17,119
kind of end with one final

1448
00:53:23,190 --> 00:53:20,160
comment slash question uh in an article

1449
00:53:24,710 --> 00:53:23,200
i read about you you described yourself

1450
00:53:26,950 --> 00:53:24,720
as being a

1451
00:53:29,190 --> 00:53:26,960
sympathetic skeptic

1452
00:53:30,870 --> 00:53:29,200
which i thought was a nice description

1453
00:53:32,950 --> 00:53:30,880
and it kind of resonated with me to a

1454
00:53:35,349 --> 00:53:32,960
degree is that you know i i engage with

1455
00:53:37,750 --> 00:53:35,359
a lot of people who who believe in weird

1456
00:53:39,349 --> 00:53:37,760
things and you yourself have gone to

1457
00:53:41,270 --> 00:53:39,359
you know the the fort conference and

1458
00:53:42,790 --> 00:53:41,280
things like that um

1459
00:53:45,030 --> 00:53:42,800
what does it mean to you to be a

1460
00:53:47,030 --> 00:53:45,040
sympathetic skeptic

1461
00:53:49,910 --> 00:53:47,040
well my brother

1462
00:53:52,470 --> 00:53:49,920
is a prominent bigfoot researcher in

1463
00:53:54,549 --> 00:53:52,480
upstate new york

1464
00:53:57,030 --> 00:53:54,559
and we wrote a book called monsters of

1465
00:53:58,710 --> 00:53:57,040
the north woods back in the early 1990s

1466
00:53:59,829 --> 00:53:58,720
which is kind of a cult book it's out of

1467
00:54:01,349 --> 00:53:59,839
print now

1468
00:54:02,950 --> 00:54:01,359
and um

1469
00:54:04,790 --> 00:54:02,960
although we've done a second one on

1470
00:54:07,109 --> 00:54:04,800
sightings in new york and new england

1471
00:54:09,430 --> 00:54:07,119
and look he's the believer

1472
00:54:11,109 --> 00:54:09,440
i'm the skeptic and i work with him in

1473
00:54:12,870 --> 00:54:11,119
writing both books

1474
00:54:14,549 --> 00:54:12,880
and i think you can work with these

1475
00:54:16,390 --> 00:54:14,559
people they just have a different

1476
00:54:18,950 --> 00:54:16,400
perspective on this

1477
00:54:21,190 --> 00:54:18,960
and i i always say i say well paul

1478
00:54:22,790 --> 00:54:21,200
i said where's the body

1479
00:54:24,470 --> 00:54:22,800
where's the fossils

1480
00:54:26,870 --> 00:54:24,480
where are the bones

1481
00:54:29,109 --> 00:54:26,880
where's the dna evidence and then of

1482
00:54:32,069 --> 00:54:29,119
course the combat at the dinner table is

1483
00:54:34,710 --> 00:54:32,079
well well maybe they eat they're dead

1484
00:54:36,470 --> 00:54:34,720
well maybe they do eat they're dead but

1485
00:54:38,470 --> 00:54:36,480
um or you know

1486
00:54:39,670 --> 00:54:38,480
black bears how many times have you seen

1487
00:54:42,390 --> 00:54:39,680
a black bear

1488
00:54:44,710 --> 00:54:42,400
yeah but people do find black bears

1489
00:54:47,510 --> 00:54:44,720
black bears are found dead in the woods

1490
00:54:49,829 --> 00:54:47,520
we have fossils of black bears we have

1491
00:54:51,510 --> 00:54:49,839
bodies of black bears on our farm in

1492
00:54:52,390 --> 00:54:51,520
upstate new york we've seen two black

1493
00:54:55,670 --> 00:54:52,400
bears

1494
00:54:57,270 --> 00:54:55,680
um in my lifetime so um

1495
00:54:59,750 --> 00:54:57,280
you know

1496
00:55:01,349 --> 00:54:59,760
show me the show me the dead alien you

1497
00:55:05,190 --> 00:55:01,359
know show me the

1498
00:55:08,230 --> 00:55:05,200
the ray gun that's being used um

1499
00:55:10,789 --> 00:55:08,240
but there's just no evidence for havana

1500
00:55:13,589 --> 00:55:10,799
syndrome for any weapon

1501
00:55:16,549 --> 00:55:13,599
microwave acoustical or whatever

1502
00:55:18,230 --> 00:55:16,559
and um i think the jason report the

1503
00:55:19,670 --> 00:55:18,240
specialist scientist

1504
00:55:22,549 --> 00:55:19,680
uh who came out with their report in

1505
00:55:25,190 --> 00:55:22,559
2018 have killed off the microwave

1506
00:55:27,510 --> 00:55:25,200
theory um and now you're left with

1507
00:55:29,990 --> 00:55:27,520
people saying well uh pulsed energy

1508
00:55:31,829 --> 00:55:30,000
whatever that is you know and there's

1509
00:55:33,589 --> 00:55:31,839
just no evidence

1510
00:55:35,349 --> 00:55:33,599
yeah yeah that's that's what it boils

1511
00:55:37,109 --> 00:55:35,359
down to ultimately i think is this this

1512
00:55:39,829 --> 00:55:37,119
lack of evidence and you know all the

1513
00:55:41,430 --> 00:55:39,839
other factors that uh kind of indicate

1514
00:55:42,870 --> 00:55:41,440
that there's a multitude of things going

1515
00:55:44,230 --> 00:55:42,880
on you know the fact that everyone hears

1516
00:55:45,829 --> 00:55:44,240
different things and have different

1517
00:55:48,549 --> 00:55:45,839
symptoms essentially

1518
00:55:51,190 --> 00:55:48,559
and yeah hopefully the the wheels of

1519
00:55:52,470 --> 00:55:51,200
science will grind a little bit quicker

1520
00:55:53,750 --> 00:55:52,480
than they have been grinding because

1521
00:55:57,109 --> 00:55:53,760
like you said lots of people are going

1522
00:56:00,309 --> 00:55:58,789
well look we've got we've got global

1523
00:56:02,549 --> 00:56:00,319
warming we've got

1524
00:56:05,829 --> 00:56:02,559
coronavirus we got all kinds of serious

1525
00:56:08,150 --> 00:56:05,839
issues facing us and this is a waste

1526
00:56:11,190 --> 00:56:08,160
of time it is a giant

1527
00:56:13,510 --> 00:56:11,200
wild goose chase right and

1528
00:56:15,030 --> 00:56:13,520
uh what is it shakespeare said or in the

1529
00:56:17,990 --> 00:56:15,040
night

1530
00:56:19,829 --> 00:56:18,000
imagining some fear

1531
00:56:23,270 --> 00:56:19,839
how easy is a bush

1532
00:56:24,710 --> 00:56:23,280
supposed a bear that's what's happening

1533
00:56:27,030 --> 00:56:24,720
in a nutshell

1534
00:56:28,549 --> 00:56:27,040
right well uh so if people want to learn

1535
00:56:30,390 --> 00:56:28,559
more about this

1536
00:56:33,670 --> 00:56:30,400
is there you have a website that people

1537
00:56:35,910 --> 00:56:33,680
can uh follow you at my website is re

1538
00:56:37,990 --> 00:56:35,920
bartholomew.com

1539
00:56:40,710 --> 00:56:38,000
and our book is havana syndrome with

1540
00:56:43,510 --> 00:56:40,720
ucla neurologist bob balo available on

1541
00:56:45,030 --> 00:56:43,520
amazon and in audio now

1542
00:56:46,630 --> 00:56:45,040
okay i'm great yeah

1543
00:56:48,230 --> 00:56:46,640
uh do you have a twitter that people can

1544
00:56:50,309 --> 00:56:48,240
follow you on or you're twitching i

1545
00:56:52,230 --> 00:56:50,319
don't i try to stay away from social

1546
00:56:54,069 --> 00:56:52,240
media as much as i can

1547
00:56:56,710 --> 00:56:54,079
well much less chance of catching some

1548
00:56:59,270 --> 00:56:56,720
kind of uh social contagion if you

1549
00:57:00,630 --> 00:56:59,280
stay off it well robert thank you very

1550
00:57:03,510 --> 00:57:00,640
much this has been a fascinating

1551
00:57:06,069 --> 00:57:03,520
conversation uh and uh yeah thank you

1552
00:57:09,290 --> 00:57:06,079
thank you for being here doing this